Using AV Receiver such as Denon, Marantz for Audiolense measurements

2234rew

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Hi all

Is anyone using an AVR with Audiolense?

Can you share how you get measurements to work with Audiolense?

Do you need ASIO4ALL to get this working?

Or WDM + clock drift correction in Audiolense is enough to work with a USB mic?

Which mic did you use?

And which model AVR

thanks in advance
 

jrobbins50

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I’ve had HDMI MCH with AL filters working on Marantz AV-7702, AV-8802A and AV-7005 prepros with 5.1 and 5.2 arrangements and 5.1 with an Integra DTR-40.3 receiver. Yes, I use ASIO4all for measurement. UMIK-1 mic goes USB into the PC that serves up MCH for each endpoint and ASIO4all is set for this mic as input. HDMI from the endpoint PCs go into the prepros. ASIO4all will see Intel Display Adaptor or some other high definition audio endpoint that you can select for output. JCR
 

2234rew

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Hi @juicehifi

I tried to get Audiolense doing measurements with Denon AVR today over HDMI.

I have a pair of 2-way DIY DSP speakers plus 1 sub.

Up to now I've been using a Focusrite interface to feed the analogue inputs of the AVR and it's been working fine but I wanted to try HDMI input and possibly avoid the double D to A .

For speaker outputs of the AVR:

SL = left woofer
SBL = left tweeter
SB = right woofer
SBL = right tweeter
Centre channel = subwoofer (speaker level input of the sub)

I orginally had tweeters hooked to FR and FL of AVR speaker outputs but found FL speaker out of the amp was playing up, so moved tweeters to available SBL and SBR. This has been working and sound great for weeks now with feeding the AVR from Focusrite interface.

Over HDMI, Windows 10 has been setup for 7.1 setup, with subwoofer disabled (since I'm using centre channel to the sub) and the Win10 test sounds works properly to all 5 drivers.

Win10 sounds work properly and Denon AVR correctly use Multi Ch Input on it's display.

So far, everything cool.

The problem is Audiolense won't allow me to setup 7 channels and I'm having a lot of difficulty mapping the channel ID's in Audiolense to the correct drivers, when I do 'check speaker connections' in the measurement screen.

When I think I've correctly mapped some channel ID's (I can't get the tweeters to work with Audiolense but Win10 test sounds work correctly) and re-run 'check speaker connections' in Audiolense, the channel ID changes the next time !

And as per screenshots below, Audiolense suggests possibly too many channels for the soundcard? But if you see screenshots, 7 channels should work since in Win 10 setup, all channels route correctly using Win10 test sounds per screenshots below.

I would guess the tweeters being SBL and SBR means channel ID 7 and 8 ? But Audiolense gives me this below error message about too many channels for the soundcard ?

Can you help with how to setup channel ID's so I can get to next step - doing the actual measurement.

I'm using the Focusrite for mic measurements. And Denon WASAPI for playback. I installed ASIO4ALL and it won't work at all but I'm using Focusrite ASIO for mic measurement anyway, not a USB mic.

I'm stuck at this connections part. How did you figure out channel ID's @jrobbins50 ?

If I couldn't get Win 10 to correctly map to correct drivers I wouldn't bother going further but since that works fine for Win 10 test sounds, I feel like I'm close if I can get AUdiolense to play nice with channel IDs.

I feel like I'm close.


Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 8.34.48 pm.png




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Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 5.19.35 pm.png


Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 5.21.39 pm.png
Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 5.18.14 pm.png


Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 5.26.36 pm.png


Screen Shot 2021-04-16 at 5.28.50 pm.png
 
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2234rew

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I see the below diagram on Microsoft website so adopted for my case I assume :


Ch 0 = FL = not used for me

Ch 1 = FR = not used for me

Ch2 = FC = subwoofer for me

Ch3 = LFE = not used for me

Ch 4 = SBL = left tweeter for me

Ch 5 = SBR = right tweeter for me

Ch 6 = SL = left woofer for me

Ch 7 = SR = right woofer for me

But Audiolense gives me the "too many channels for soundcard" error message I shared in the post above, so I can't set these tweeter channel IDs

41263
 

2234rew

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Hi @juicehifi and @jrobbins50

An update on yesterday.

The issue with 'too many channels for soundcard' only comes up in WASAPI EXCLUSIVE MODE. So if I enable shared mode, or Direct Sound etc, that issue goes away.

And I'm now able to get Audiolense speaker connect test signals to all 5 drivers - but they are not the correct drivers, if that makes sense.

So AL shows left tweeter and sound goes to right woofer , etc etc.

So I make a note of the channel ID's and where sound is going.

And manually change those channel IDs in the AL measurement screen, and re-run the speaker connection test.

But then Audiolense changes the channel output IDs so its all wrong again. It seems to change output channels each time I try to manually 'correct' the channel outputs in Audiolense.

Any clues as to what's happening?

I feel one step closer but this seemingly random behaviour of output channel mapping is hard to track.

Is Audiolense really channging the mapping when I change output channels? Could there be an AL error there?

41300





The Win10 sound card test signals for 7.1 works correctly for the below, as reported yesterday also:


41301
 

juicehifi

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Good job so far.2234rew,

Try with the "playback problems workaround" activated.
 

2234rew

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Good job so far.2234rew,

Try with the "playback problems workaround" activated.
Thanks Bernt but I tried and still no luck.

The speaker connection test in AL works with the 5 drivers in my system which is good but I'm unable to manually map to the correct drivers.

Audiolense lets me manually map of course but the result is always wrong playback to wrong driver in the speaker connection test.

So the channel ID's i'm using below are the correct 5 channels of the HDMI output to be using - but they are playing to wrong drivers and any attempts I make to correct in Audiolense, fails.

And this is with Win10 correctly playing to correct drivers, with the Win10 speaker config test sounds.

Any other tips I could try?

It feels like I'm close to having this working but struggling with channel mapping.

41305
 

jrobbins50

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If I understand, I think you should stop trying to map to your HDMI outputs, that is, what works on your Windows sound properties test. Keep changing the virtual input channels on AL until the AL speaker check does map in reality as you hear each speaker actually being tested.

The mismapping between Windows and AL can be corrected by altering the cfg files after AL creates the filters with the cfg files, assuming you are using Roon for convolution and playback. (i.e., you use HQPlayer, the adjustments must be made in the HQP convolution matrix.) For example, I can have all six of the speakers in my den playing correctly during a Windows sound properties test, and I can achieve the same by experimenting with the channel assignments in AL. Nevertheless, the filters AL generates will cause silence from my center and surround channels until I manually correct the cfg routings. I’ve only had this happen on MCH setups and not on 2.1 or 2.2 arrangements.

I hope this helps. JCR
 

2234rew

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If I understand, I think you should stop trying to map to your HDMI outputs, that is, what works on your Windows sound properties test. Keep changing the virtual input channels on AL until the AL speaker check does map in reality as you hear each speaker actually being tested.

The mismapping between Windows and AL can be corrected by altering the cfg files after AL creates the filters with the cfg files, assuming you are using Roon for convolution and playback. (i.e., you use HQPlayer, the adjustments must be made in the HQP convolution matrix.) For example, I can have all six of the speakers in my den playing correctly during a Windows sound properties test, and I can achieve the same by experimenting with the channel assignments in AL. Nevertheless, the filters AL generates will cause silence from my center and surround channels until I manually correct the cfg routings. I’ve only had this happen on MCH setups and not on 2.1 or 2.2 arrangements.

I hope this helps. JCR
Hi JCR

Your post has motivated me to continue trying and not give up.

When you say stop trying to map HDMI outputs, is that because you went through similar/same frustrations?

If you went through this and it ended up working great for you, then I will definitely spend more time with the 'trial and error' approach of matching channel output ID with the right driver, for the AL speaker connection test.

I don't want to proceed to measurement until AL speaker connection test is 'correct'.

I use HQPlayer already using NAA on Win10 flawlessly (with a Focusrite interface reading the Denon AVR).

But I really want to try to get HDMI working and avoid the 'double D to A' even though double D to A is measuring nicely and sounding really nice.

Thanks again
 

jrobbins50

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When you say stop trying to map HDMI outputs, is that because you went through similar/same frustrations?

YES

I use HQPlayer already using NAA on Win10 flawlessly (with a Focusrite interface reading the Denon AVR.

Once you get the filters working, setting them up in the NAA convolution matrix is not trivial. When you get to that point, I will share a mapping I’ve done of AL filters to NAA, which I succeeded at after getting Bernt and Jussi from HQP talking directly with each other. JCR
 

2234rew

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Once you get the filters working, setting them up in the NAA convolution matrix is not trivial. When you get to that point, I will share a mapping I’ve done of AL filters to NAA, which I succeeded at after getting Bernt and Jussi from HQP talking directly with each other. JCR
Hi JCR

Could you kindly share this HQP mapping ?

Reason is because I already have measured the room through Focusrite (no HDMI involved), I was trying to get HQP working over HDMI and already went through the pain of mapping not working.

Ideally I want to do measurement through HDMI and will persist but in the meantime I tried just playback through HDMI and now see I will need your channel mapping tip to get that working

Thanks again
 

juicehifi

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The speaker setup you define in windows most likely influences how the Denon unit is expoed to Audiolense. E.g. if you specify 5.1, only 6 channels may be availabe for Audiolense.

And then there can be an issue with how the Denon responds to the channel selection done by Audiolense.

Since you are getting audio true, I would expect this to be solvable with a bit more trial & error.

Also, since the "check speaker connection test" fails, just try to start a measurement. Starting a measurement is a good way of checking the speaker connection. Just be very careful with the volume setting so you don't risk blowing a tweeter with a strong low frequency signal. There have been issues with the check in the past. The issues has been fixed as far as I know.. But perhaps there's more to it.

The "check speaker connection" only plays in one channel at a time. If the Denon isn't equipped to handle a mono signal directed to a certain channel this may fail. But if you have the workaround enabled, it will be a multi channel signal with silence in the unused channels. During measurement, a multichannel signal is used, but normally only involving the channels used by Audiolense. But if the workaround is enable, Audiolense will play silence through the unused channels as well. This should not really matter, but sometimes it does...
 

2234rew

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The speaker setup you define in windows most likely influences how the Denon unit is expoed to Audiolense. E.g. if you specify 5.1, only 6 channels may be availabe for Audiolense.
Thanks Bernt. In the very first screenshot in post #3 it specifies 7.1 channels in Win10 sound settings.

And then there can be an issue with how the Denon responds to the channel selection done by Audiolense.

Since you are getting audio true, I would expect this to be solvable with a bit more trial & error.

Also, since the "check speaker connection test" fails, just try to start a measurement. Starting a measurement is a good way of checking the speaker connection. Just be very careful with the volume setting so you don't risk blowing a tweeter with a strong low frequency signal. There have been issues with the check in the past. The issues has been fixed as far as I know.. But perhaps there's more to it.

The "check speaker connection" only plays in one channel at a time. If the Denon isn't equipped to handle a mono signal directed to a certain channel this may fail. But if you have the workaround enabled, it will be a multi channel signal with silence in the unused channels. During measurement, a multichannel signal is used, but normally only involving the channels used by Audiolense. But if the workaround is enable, Audiolense will play silence through the unused channels as well. This should not really matter, but sometimes it does...
All noted, I'll try more trial and error and even trying measurement.

Fortunately I have AL working great without HDMI (using analogue multi ch input of the Denon) so I know what the tones should sound like with each driver. So I should be able to spot if a driver is not playing the right sweep.

For tweeters I'm using ESS Oskar Heil AMT - I don't know if those can be damaged playing sub-bass in the way dome tweeters can but I don't want to find out either! So will do it all at low volume.

In the screenshot in post #5 (and below again) , I reached the point where I am getting sound to each of the 5 drivers, which was a good milestone to reach.

The problem is just wrong driver is playing, in the speaker connection test. So I feel like I am close.

As one example, in speaker connection test: AL plays test sound which should be LEFT TWEETER (Ch4) but I hear sound coming out a different driver. The left tweeter sound comes out of RIGHT MIDBASS (Ch7).

So I then change LEFT TWEETER from Ch4 to Ch7, thinking that the next speaker connection test should get LEFT TWEETER correct (and all 5 drivers correct, using same process) - but alas it doesn't happen. Is that the same thing you noticed @jrobbins50 ?



1618814189294.png



It's certainly not the end of the world if I can't get this working. But I'll keep trying.

I'm really enjoying AL as it is Focusrite 18i20 Gen3 feeding multichannel analogue inputs of Denon AVR-4308.

The measurements are great, the SQ is the best I've ever had at home.

This kind of multi channel analogue input is a dying/dead input of new AVRs. It will be a big bonus if I can get HDMI working but not the end of the world.

And I can document all the steps in this thread to help others of the process and issues.
 
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jrobbins50

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To your two questions of me:

1.
Whoops, I pressed post way too soon.

1. Yes, sometimes finding the right combination of channel and output is a bit like the "whack-a-mole" game, with trial and error required.

2. As to using AL filters in HQP, you only need one set of wav files at the highest resolution your AVR will support (as you don't have an outboard DAC). That would be 192K, of course. The AL filters-to- HQP pipeline matrix mapping example below uses 384K in my case, but that doesn't impact the mapping.

AL will produce a cfg file for you, as shown for my Okto dac8pro as attached. You'll note that for my 5.2 MCH system, the cfg file has 15 separate entries. These will each relate to a separate line in the HQP pipeline matrix. I've attached a screenshot of part of my matrix.
HQP Pipeline Matrix.JPG


As you can see, you need to input a source channel, a gain amount, the gain unit, the mix channel and the process.

By studying the original cfg and the map, you'll see what goes into each line. Some additional thoughts.

Line 1 relates to the original cfg left main channel (channel 0) -- so right away, note that in HQP, everything is advanced by one count (i.e., line 1 in HQP is cfg channel 0, line 2 in HQP is cfg channel 1, etc.). Source channel relates to the second item for each AL channel in the cfg. Note that for line 4, the source channel is 5, for example (4.0 in AL). Gain units are all Lin, so just set as such. The gain is normally 1 for each line, but if AL shows a split, such as what you see in the original cfg for line 14, then you have to do two HQP lines for the one AL line and set gain for each of these two lines at 0.5 each so they sum to 1. Mix channel is simply the third number in the AL cfg for the particular channel. Of course, the process is merely the link on your hard drive to the wav file for that particular AL line.

I hope this helps. JCR
 

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2234rew

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1. Yes, sometimes finding the right combination of channel and output is a bit like the "whack-a-mole" game, with trial and error required.
Thanks JCR. I am getting mentally prepared for this fun game this weekend :-)

2. As to using AL filters in HQP, you only need one set of wav files at the highest resolution your AVR will support (as you don't have an outboard DAC). That would be 192K, of course. The AL filters-to- HQP pipeline matrix mapping example below uses 384K in my case, but that doesn't impact the mapping.
Thanks again JCR. Here, you've shared how to get AL correction files into HQPlayer with your USB DAC.

As per my opening post, I already have a USB DAC (Focusrite) feeding my Denon AVR and have already done what you do to get HQPlayer NAA working. I used the same process you described, of reading the cfg file.

When you wrote this:

"Once you get the filters working, setting them up in the NAA convolution matrix is not trivial. When you get to that point, I will share a mapping I’ve done of AL filters to NAA, which I succeeded at after getting Bernt and Jussi from HQP talking directly with each other. JCR"

I thought you meant that there was yet another game of whack-a-mole specifically with using HDMI with HQPlayer. Two games of whack-a-mole would be too much for me lol.

Are you using HQPlayer NAA with an AV Receiver/Processer over HDMI?

Just to clarify: so the only whack-a-mole game required with HDMI AVR is with Audiolense speaker connection / measurements, correct ? After AL measurements, the process should be straight forward like with USB interface (reading cfg file)?

The AL speaker connection process is the only issue I've bumped into. But so far I've considered it a 'road block' and I've avoided going to measurement step until I resolved the HDMI channel mapping incorrectly to drivers. But will try Bernt's suggestions also.
 

jrobbins50

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Yes, straightforward (if that is what you want to call it). I use HQP with AL filters for three endpoints: my main system MCH with the Okto DAC (DSD128), my main system digitized phono playback (DSD512) and my den 2-channel system (DSD128). Only the MCH requires use of the HQP pipeline matrix — the 2-channel endpoints can use the more simple convolution entry in HQP. My three MCH endpoints with HDMI use AL filters directly into Roon. JCR
 

2234rew

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My three MCH endpoints with HDMI use AL filters directly into Roon. JCR
Thanks JCR.

So I'll be in uncharted waters with HQP with HDMI then. My anxiety just went up. Wish me luck.

Roon seems to do things more magically with convolution, than HQP. Whether using HDMI (with ROCK or Nucleus) or USB.

Are your HDMI Roon endpoints using ROCK/Nucleus or Windoze ?

I know for multichannel Roon themselves recommend and support HDMI with ROCK/Nucleus
 
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jrobbins50

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Windows — all cheap i-3 processor PCs running Roon bridge that I bought from Microcenter for $150 apiece. They work great. JCR
 

2234rew

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My three MCH endpoints with HDMI use AL filters directly into Roon. JCR
What's the reason you don't utilise HQP NAA on Windows for those MCH HDMI endpoints ?

Did you try and it didn't work ? Or you never tried?

I am hoping the HQP + HDMI setup is as 'striaghtforward' as with my USB MCH DAC. but need to get past the 'whack-a-mole' speaker connection / measurement stage first.
 

2234rew

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Hi @juicehifi

Just wondering if my speaker setup should be changed (to 7.1) to help with HDMI mapping issue I've been having?

Or that shouldn't make a difference? Currently it's this:

1618926993323.png

1618927751343.png

1618927779695.png


Speaker setup is:

Left tweeter & Left midbass

Right tweeter & Right midbass

Subwoofer (next to right speaker).

Or the current setup is ok?

This weekend I will get around to trying the measurement (at low volume) as you suggested as well as the game of 'whack-a-mole' that JCR encouraged, but just wondered if there was something in my settings that could help.
 
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jrobbins50

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I have one HQP license. Switching endpoints thus requires logging into my Roon core server, which also is my HQP host, and changing the HQP settings accordingly. That’s more of a hassle than just switching endpoints in Roon, so I’ve used HQP only for the three endpoints that I can scale to DSD. Of course, all my HDMI endpoints are 24/192. Maybe I am missing out on some sonic benefit to HQP at 24/192. JCR
 

juicehifi

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2234rew,

You should only specify used channels in Audiolense. If you measure something that isn't producing audio you will get a measurement error.
 

2234rew

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You should only specify used channels in Audiolense.
Thanks Bernt. What I mean is for the case of using 5 HDMi channels out of 7.1, should I modify this screen below? Since this screen mentions output channels routing.
1618966318747.png

Or I should leave the above as is and do the output channel mapping in the "measurement" screen like usual, below:

1618966441622.png
 
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