Synyrgy Cynyma II ( Pronounced: Lynyrd Skynyrd Too)

[1_sufferin_mind]

INTRO & BACKGROUND

Well, alrighty then! Here we are at the tail end of one story--the dismal crash & burn of Synyrgy Cynyma's initial launch--and the trail head of another. Today we find 1_sufferin_mind deep in thought with his pencil sharpened and nose to the HT design grindstone. To get my inevitable negativity out of the way: all hopes and dreams have been dashed upon the rocks of In-Law Bay. I've been targeting a full-size, custom-designed room but the current plan has me moving toward new construction with a predefined floor plan.

While I've been graciously allotted two upstairs rooms, neither is of sufficient size for a serious dedicated theater (see floor plan below). The builder confirmed that the shared wall can be removed, but only at substantial cost. I'm hesitant to commit to the design modification anyway for fear of adversely affecting the home's resale value. Besides, creating a single large space merely compounds considerations for placement of an office nook and an audio workstation area for LP cleaning and transcription.

In any case, I chose the 11x17 room not only because it's the larger of the two, but also because it has a relatively uninterrupted perimeter. That allows for good acoustical symmetry and aids equipment/furniture layout. It's my hope that I'll be able to customize the build for HT use without detracting from its use as a bedroom when the house is sold. I plan to add a second HVAC vent (and possible return) to help siphon off equipment heat from the plasma TV, tube gear, AC Power Regenerator, and power amplifiers. I also plan to add at least two 20A dedicated power lines. I would like to have conduit in the walls/ceiling/floor between intended equipment stations for a tidy installation and to ease future equipment expansion/upgrades. Whether or not I can afford an HVAC professional and an electrician's time is another story.

Borrowing from bkeeler's My New Theater thread, I'd like to organize mine the same way--I've added reserved sections for specific topics immediately following this one.
This is my first time tackling a room from bare construction, and I don't have near as much control over the build as I'd like. Please let me know when you think there's a better path to follow, if you'd like to challenge my decisions, or just want to cheer me on. I've been around the block before when it comes to setting up equipment and rooms, but not when it comes to designing/constructing the room itself. The builder may move so fast that I won't have time to include any mods, or they may not be allowed. I'm open to your suggestions and advice!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

FLOOR PLAN & VIEWS
(Updated 18JL19)

My top choice, Bedroom 3 (11' x 17'), is highlighted in the drawing. I initially thought the room was a foot narrower than my current one. Deep depression ensued. Equipment would necessarily play into the short dimension for better SS&I, but that hinders surround placement behind the audience. I've since discovered that the new room is actually a foot wider! That means I'll be able to get more physical channel separation, or sidewall distance. The new room is also four feet longer, so surround placement will now have some degree of optimization potential. My first image of the plan is just an uncluttered view without annotations. I'll be adding some roughed-in equipment/furniture layouts as the project progresses.

UPDATE #1:
Wouldn’t it be great if the main entry door opened outward from the room instead of inward? That would be so much more flexible for speaker/trap placement. We’re checking with the builder if it’s an option.

UPDATE #2:
Here are my latest customization requests for the room

UPDATE #3:
Attached is the formal request for mods that I submitted to the builder. It's frustrating to communicate with them through a third party who doesn't understand home theater basics or goals. I'm supposed to wait to hear back from them on feasibility and cost.

UPDATE #4:
More drawings! These are first-draft plans for room layout (speakers and furniture only... walk-in closet will house all gear). Two configurations are included, both long and short wall setup.

UPDATE #5 (08JL19):
Added scaled drawing of short-wall setup as derived from Wayne's Alternate Method for SS&I, and which takes reclined seats into account.

UPDATE #6 (18JL19):
Added modified short-wall setups progressing through removal of 2nd row seating.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

CONSTRUCTION & MODIFICATIONS

Upcoming pictures will let you follow along as the home is built. I wish I could promise specific HT pics, but I’m unsure if I’ll have much control over materials and/or methods to make it interesting and worthwhile. At a minimum, I’m hoping to specify electrical drops and conduit locations.


Haven’t broken ground yet, but they have staked our the plot.

At long last, not just broken ground, but also pouring foundation!


Moving right along with slab and lumber-drop.




And now on to windows, doors, and roof




Enough of the house already!
Time for room framing!!






UPDATE 11/21/19:
Framing & Insulation passed inspection. Now on to drywall.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

AUDIO/VIDEO GEAR ( Green=New / Red =TBD )

TV:
LG 65CX OLED

Projector:
JVC X-70R 16:9 1080p

Screen (16:9 AT, Tensioned Pulldown):

Seymour Screens Center Stage XD 109"​

Drive Units:
Pre/Phono amp:

Custom Cary Audio SLP98-P​

Pre/Pro: Emotiva XMC-2
Pwr Amps (Mains):

Custom McCormack DNA1 Monoblocks​

Pwr Amps (Other): Emotiva XPA-5
Speakers (Mains): Revel Ultima Salons
Speakers (Center): Revel Ultima Voice
Speakers (Surrounds): PSB-B5
Speakers (Subwoofer):

Seaton Sound SubMersive F2+/F2-​

​

Headphones: Audeze LCD-2
Head Amp: Woo Audio WA6-SE

Digital Sources:

Universal Player: Oppo BDP-95​

D/A Converter: PS Audio PWD​

Hi Res Source: 8TB USB storage via laptop controlled by JRiver​

Amazon Prime: Sony PS-3​

Digital Recording:
Alesis Masterlink 9600

Analog Source:
VPI Super Scoutmaster Turntable
JMW9 Memorial Tonearm
Moving Coil Cartridge:

Hana MH​

SDS Speed Control Power Supply

Analog Signal Processing:
KLH Burwen Research TNE-7000A
KLH Burwen Research DNF-1201A
BBE 822A Sonic Maximizer
DBX 4bx

Power Conditioning:
Furman iT Reference 7i
PS Audio Power Plant Premier
PS Audio Duets

Acoustic Treatment & Vibration Control:
ASC's Tube Traps and Panels
Bright Star Audio's Air Mass & Big/Little Rocks
Ginkgo Audio Turntable Platform
Sanus Equipment Rack & Amp Stands
Lead Shot & Sand

UPDATE #1

The equipment budget is not in stone, but is circling around $6 - $7k with roughly $1k of that reserved for a new phono cartridge. My current gear has served up some high grade entertainment these past few years, and will continue in that role alongside a few changes. I plan to move from 5.1 to 7.1, replacing the PSB surrounds with SVS Prime Elevations. I would also like to elevate my subwoofer's performance to keep pace with the Revel's. My PSA XV-15se seems bloated and sluggish in their company.​

​

UPDATE #2:

AV NIRVANA members have convinced me I want and need a used JVC projector to satisfy my quality cravings. So setting aside about $1k for proj/lamp and another $2k for a very high quality drop-down, tensioned, AT screen leaves roughly half my budget for sub, surrounds, and phone cartridge. That unfortunately leaves little to no wiggle room for incidentals such as cabling, IR repeaters, blackout shades, screen curtains, and decorative lighting.​

​

UPDATE #3:

I am very fortunate to have been granted a bigger budget! I snagged a used JVC projector, so can start working on screen specifics. Even though Seymour’s AT models have staggering price tags, I’m unwilling to compromise sound quality. That the screen also brings stellar picture quality (for an AT) to the table is an added bonus. I believe I’ll opt for the XD screen material because of its low insertion loss and greater than unity screen gain.​

​

UPDATE #4:

My budget went kaput. Couldn’t resist a major subwoofer upgrade and indulgence. Surrounds will have to wait, as will any hope for fancy cooling of the equipment closet. Audio uber alles!​

​

UPDATE #5:

Added purchased TV/Projector power conditioner and possible phono cartridge. Updated digital library playback​

​

UPDATE #6:
Budget BLOWN !!! NO SELF CONTROL !!! Could not hold back upgrading display.

UPDATE #7:
Budget RESSURECTED (partially) !!! Came across unbelievable deal on used screen I was going to buy anyway. Also updated prep/pro.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

SOUND ISOLATION / SOUNDPROOFING
(Updated 05JN19)

Other than traditional acoustic treatments like traps and panels, I have no plans to modify the room's structure or build a room-within-a-room. A lot will depend on finances and whether or not the builder accommodates special requests.

This is definitely a topic I'll be seeking guidance on. It would be advantageous to soundproof the floor, because the in-laws will tend to congregate in the room directly below. It would help to know where the diminishing returns are. I think soundproofing the door and vents as much as possible helps more than sealing drywall gaps, for instance. Please set me straight if need be!!

UPDATE #1:
Mr. Poe was kind enough to detail the major considerations for sound proofing/isolation in my original thread. To summarize:

1. Decouple
   View attachment 10843
   
   
2. Absorb
   Use sound-absorptive materials such as cellulose, mineral wool, and recycled cotton (R13 in walls; R19 in ceiling/floor). The key is to keep the density low. Don’t compress or pack the insulation. There is no data that supports that any other insulation (including the “acoustic” labeled, and recycled cotton) works better. Also, foam (open or closed cell) is superior for thermal but distinctly worse for acoustic. Use the cheapest fiberglass you can find.
   
   
3. Add Mass
   Use dense/heavy materials such as Drywall, Plywood, OSB, and Cement Board. For sound to conduct through a wall, it has to actually move the wall ever so slightly . A heavy wall is harder to move than a lighter wall, but it will still vibrate (i.e. it will still let some sound through). It is best to use two layers of 5/8″ drywall, but simply adding mass does not help block much bass.
   
   
   
   
   
   
4. Dampen
   Reducing the drywall from vibrating in the first place would make the jobs of the mass, insulation and decoupling easier. This is where Green Glue sandwiched between layers of drywall helps to keep it from vibrating excessively.
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

It would seem that the more effective HT sound isolation methods really are cost prohibitive in my situation. Knowing we’ll be moving out of the newly constructed home within 5-10 years, it’s financially unwise for us to invest in a disposable, high-performance theater so close to retirement. We may need to sell quickly, so won’t have time to wait for the right home-buying HT enthusiast to come along.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

ACOUSTICS

I had hoped to surround the front stage with soffit traps. It looks like I'll be using my tried and true treatments from ASC due to budgetary constraints and priorities. The system's stellar sound quality translates well to different acoustical venues, so I concentrated instead on upgrading my display. My old plasmas were impressive, but I'm in for a special treat from what I hear about my new purchase, a 65" LG OLED CX-Series. No, I didn't get a special deal. It was just the right time in my life to (over) indulge.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

VENTILATION / COOLING

I plan to convert the HT room’s walk-in closet to an equipment room. My Class-A and tube gear run hot, along with my AC power regenerator, so dedicated ventilation/cooling will be a necessity. I am considering a ductless ceiling unit vented into the attic. The home will be fitted with ridge vents for superior heat dissipation, so I don’t imagine the extra heat load will pose much of a challenge. Thoughts and feedback welcome!

UPDATE #1:
I’ve since learned that a ductless mini-split is an indoor/outdoor combo connected only by tubing. Ventilating into the attic isn’t an issue.

UPDATE #2:
The builder is unable to comply with any request to modify the home’s HVAC system as designed. That makes sense considering the engineering effort involved to properly size the system for heat load, air flow, and more. But it puts my equipment at risk of overheating, not to mention the audience!

The equipment closet will be more difficult to cool than most, because I’m not using high-efficiency D-Class amps. I previously hoped the builder would be familiar with mini-split systems, and install one for me in the closet. Now it looks like I’ll need to hire a contractor.

UPDATE #3:
A mini-split is no longer under consideration for cooling the equipment closet. I found a much cheaper alternative which doesn’t require navigating the no-step attic space. The ventilating fans shown below are thermostat controlled and automatically adjust speed to meet cooling conditions. I plan to use an exhaust fan near the closet’s ceiling (where heat tends to collect) and an intake fan near the floor. Because of the closet’s centralized location, I’ll be able to source cool air from the room adjacent to the theater while exhausting heated air to the hallway. I may even install a window A/C unit in be adjoining room to help increase the thermal gradient. If I correctly recall my Heat Transfer and Fluid Flow, larger gradients cause faster transfer; so it’s beneficial to draw the coolest air possible into the closet. Thoughts? Other suggestions?

This is the exhaust model

AIRFRAME T7 Black, AV Equipment Closet and Room Fan System 17", Exhaust

Your source to create smart growing systems with components including advance grow tents, inline fans, clip-on fans, LED grow lights, and UIS™ controllers.

www.acinfinity.com

UPDATE #4:
Pulled the trigger on the cooling modules. Although the ACInfinity online calculator recommends approx 600CFM airflow for the size of my equipment closet, my budget only allows for 400CFM; so two of each intake/exhaust models will be installed. The intake will source cool air from the adjoining den while the exhaust will expel it into the hall. Hopefully the 2nd zone thermostat for the upstairs will register the extra heat load and keep A/C demand high. A couple of register "accelerators will be used to draw cool air from the ducts in both rooms.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

ELECTRICAL

At a minimum, I’d like to substitute 20A circuits for the traditional 15A ones, and have each dual-outlet “location” on a dedicated line to the main box. I firmly believe in running power amps—unhindered by surge/protection devices—straight from the wall. But I’m not as militant anymore about keeping amps on separate circuits. I doubt this old geezer could hear a difference.

So in the closet itself, I anticipate needing three power amp outlets, one main equipment outlet, one HVAC outlet, and a spare. Aside from a normal complement of general-use outlets, the room would have an outlet on the front wall for either a TV or motorized projection screen, floor outlets for reclining HT seats, and a ceiling outlet for a possible projector. Did I leave anything out?

UPDATE #1 (13JL19):
The builder agreed to my electrical proposals with the added bonus of a 100A sub-panel on the same phase for the whole room. The itemized list appears below.

UPDATE #2. (18JL19):
Is this enough juice to drive my new room?

UPDATE #3. (19Nov19):
All of the dedicated outlets and sub-panel have been installed. Only one needs to be reversed into the equipment closet, but it’s already passed inspection and can’t be changed (except by me after we move in).

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

RELATED LINKS

Small Room Display vs Projector Performance
My First Projector and Screen
Choosing the Right Aspect Ratio
Choosing the Right Screen Size
Screen Calculator
Projector Throw Distance Calculator
Optimizing ASC Tube Traps
Tube Trap Theory and Application
Seaton’s Subwoofer Optimization Summary
Seaton’s SubMersive Amp Controls Setup

 

[Adhoc]

As you have the room upstairs, you are probably at the point of diminishing returns after you have installed sealing strips around doors and perhaps some vibration dampers under the speakers. To be effective sound isolation need heavy mass + an air tight shell (wall + floor + ceiling). Probably you cannot reach that heavy mass and if you tried it would cost huge money, the building could even collapse ... A good read for sound isolation: https://www.jhbrandt.net/resources/ => https://www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/How-To-Find-Out-How-Much-Isolation-You-Need.pdf

(It is not uncommon to mix up sound isolation with sound absorbtion. It is not the same thing.)

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Your advice is in-line with recommendations from others, and I think I’m now dissuaded from considering sound isolation—as much as it will sorely be needed. From what little I know. It seems as if a sealed, solid-core door combined with wall-gap elimination and maybe some HVAC duct treatment just isn’t enough to mitigate inevitably high SPLs. Especially in the bass region. Sure these measures help, but I believe they’d be swamped by sound transmission to the downstairs through the floor and walls.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I’d like to thank you all for participating so far, and think I should let you know I appreciate your input. I hope it doesn’t seem as if I ask your opinion and then go off in another direction anyway. I’d like to improve my room and grow as an enthusiast, so need you guys!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Does anyone have an opinion on, or experience with, configuring a system on the long wall instead of the customary short one?

Other than a reduction in the number of preferred seats, what are the pros/cons of a long-wall system?

How is sound quality affected? Can a superb HT system be set up that way? Why or why not?

 

[JStewart]

VENTILATION / COOLING

I plan to convert the HT room’s walk-in closet to an equipment room. My Class-A and tube gear run hot, along with my AC power regenerator, so dedicated ventilation/cooling will be a necessity. I am considering a ductless ceiling unit vented into the attic. The home will be fitted with ridge vents for superior heat dissipation, so I don’t imagine the extra heat load will pose much of a challenge. Thoughts and feedback welcome!

On that same subject, projectors can throw off some heat. Some additional cooling or separate zone could be a good thing. Especially considering 2nd floor.

So in the closet itself, I anticipate needing three power amp outlets, one main equipment outlet, one HVAC outlet, and a spare. Aside from a normal complement of general-use outlets, the room would have an outlet on the front wall for either a TV or motorized projection screen, floor outlets for reclining HT seats, and a ceiling outlet for a possible projector. Did I leave anything out?

Didn’t see powered subs on your list. Some of them are circuit worthy.

If you go the way of the motorized AT screen in front of the Revels you could put a TV or some other powered gear between.

Random thought: Possible access to closet from other bedroom. Equipment positioned for easy access from front and back.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

A separate zone will be installed for the second floor which I’ll share with my wife. Luckily, she likes cooler temperatures. Maybe I should consider a window unit along with the second upstairs zone and the ceiling unit in the equipment closet. Operational noise levels will strongly influence whether or not a window unit takes up residence.

I’ve asked for extra electrical outlets in the room but was told they need to be a minimum distance apart. I’m hoping to get lucky that one or more of them will be close to the subwoofer(s).

I really, really like your idea for an access door on the other side of the equipment closet!! That’s much better than locating it a sufficient distance from the wall behind, because it’s much more efficient use of space. See the FLOORPLAN &VIEWS section for an update.

 

[JStewart]

A separate zone will be installed for the second floor which I’ll share with my wife. Luckily, she likes cooler temperatures. Maybe I should consider a window unit along with the second upstairs zone and the ceiling unit in the equipment closet.

A smart thermostat that can be controlled from an app might be handy assuming the zone's thermostat won't be located in your listening room. Beyond that your contractor may have some thoughts with respect to a return line from the room or an additional supply line for better turnover. I can't imagine such a change would be very expensive at all.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

It would not bother me in the least to set it up on the long wall... I'd probably prefer it so that I could really spread out my front speakers for the best sound stage and imaging and depth acuity. At only 11ft wide... been there and done that in an 11.5 x 19.5 room... the fronts are right next to the wall.. can't get them spread out far enough...just not that good for music, although fine for movies.

The drawback is likely one row and rears being useless if you planned on using them, which wouldn't matter to me, as I do not care for rears anyway. I put my surrounds in the rear corners. The only speakers I want in front of me are the front speakers... nothing on the side. I do have the Atmos speakers above me just slightly forward... but they are extreme ambient in movies only, unlike what side surrounds will do to mess with what I hear.

 

[JStewart]

Does anyone have an opinion on, or experience with, configuring a system on the long wall instead of the customary short one?

Other than a reduction in the number of preferred seats, what are the pros/cons of a long-wall system?

How is sound quality affected? Can a superb HT system be set up that way? Why or why not?

I can’t see any upside for home theater.
To add to those downsides Sonnie pointed out ...
- seating too close to rear wall, I.e. worse bass peaks (or nulls potentially)
- smaller screen either limited by front speaker width or projector throw distance.
- projector probably above seating so fan noise more noticeable.
- no room behind for atmos overhead rear speakers in an x.4 configuration.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Definitely good points I did not think about for movies.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

...been there and done that in an 11.5 x 19.5 room... the fronts are right next to the wall.. can't get them spread out far enough...just not that good for music, although fine for movies.

It’s an unacceptable trade-off for me as well. Might as well have direct/reflecting speakers.
I place sound quality above video considerations, so don’t mind if light reflects off the speakers or they encroach on the image a bit.

I put my surrounds in the rear corners. The only speakers I want in front of me are the front speakers... nothing on the side. I do have the Atmos speakers above me just slightly forward... but they are extreme ambient in movies only, unlike what side surrounds will do to mess with what I hear.

Do you mean the side surrounds detract from music listening, or that you feel they distract from movies. I ask because of the phrase “mess with”.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

If two channel music is more important... there would no question for me using the long wall. If movies and surround are more important... I probably lean towards using the narrow wall.

I tried side and rear at one time... on the back row of seating is where it really messed with me. There was too much information coming from the side speakers that got to me before the front speakers. It was weird. For the front row, for which the system was tuned, it was fine, but there are many time I will sit in the back when we have company over for a movie, and thinking about others who sit on the back row. The rear corner surrounds have always worked well for me. I feared Atmos giving me issues, but it's really just ambient... they are not like the surrounds... at least I have not noticed the same effect. Right now my theater sound is truly transparent from my primary listening position, and pretty respectable from the other seats, so I have no complaints. I contribute the bulk of that to Dirac Live.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

A smart thermostat that can be controlled from an app might be handy assuming the zone's thermostat won't be located in your listening room. Beyond that your contractor may have some thoughts with respect to a return line from the room or an additional supply line for better turnover. I can't imagine such a change would be very expensive at all.

My wife luckily likes cooler indoor temperatures, as do I, so at least there'll be some synergy in Synyrgy Cynyma . Thanks for the suggestion! I forwarded the proposal to the design team to see what they have to say.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

It would not bother me in the least to set it up on the long wall... I'd probably prefer it so that I could really spread out my front speakers for the best sound stage and imaging and depth acuity. At only 11ft wide... been there and done that in an 11.5 x 19.5 room... the fronts are right next to the wall.. can't get them spread out far enough...just not that good for music, although fine for movies.

The drawback is likely one row and rears being useless if you planned on using them, which wouldn't matter to me, as I do not care for rears anyway. I put my surrounds in the rear corners. The only speakers I want in front of me are the front speakers... nothing on the side. I do have the Atmos speakers above me just slightly forward... but they are extreme ambient in movies only, unlike what side surrounds will do to mess with what I hear.

Since I last spilled ink on this topic, my S.O. has decreed that the new theater will comfortably accomodate a second row. That pretty much eliminates long-wall setup. And now I'm worried about moving to a 7.1 configuration in a relatively small space for fear I may experience the same disorienting surround effects. Thanks a lot, pal -- j/k!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I think my next decision will be whether to go with a flat panel display or projector/screen. The system would be used about 70/30% for movies/music, so while I could skew setup to favor movies, I still value accurate stereo reproduction highly enough to voluntarily compromise the video presentation. I'd like to upgrade my current 60" screen size at the same time, but don't have a lot of leeway given that my room only grows a foot in width. That's only a 6 inch gain per side in either speaker separation or speaker-to-wall clearance; none if the extra width is allocated to the display. In both cases, the sides of the L/R mains visibly encroach on the displayed image in the form of significant reflection and peripheral-vision interference,.

That's the conundrum: grow the displayed area without forcing the mains closer to the sidewalls. The traditional solution is to enclose the mains and center channels behind a false wall, upon which an acoustically transparent screen is hung. That allows maximum utilization of room width for screen size and speaker separation, but it also guarantees sound stage and imaging (SS&I) nightmares due to increased reflections behind the wall. An alternative would be to set up the mains for near-field listening in 2-channel mode, while still arranging for proper viewing distance. Both configurations are filled with significant compromises.

This is a hard decision which depends on priorities, so is necessarily mine alone to make. I feel the need to stick to the "plan" of keeping my current L/C/R set, because I think selling them would not raise enough cash for smaller, high-performing replacements--though I have read about strong contenders such as Emotiva's Airmotiv T2's or Goldenear Trtion 2's. My logic runs along the lines of smaller cabinets or different design goals may allow bang-for-the-buck models to pull-off the 2 channel disappearing act even though positioned close to sidewalls. My Revels snicker at the prospect, unable to comply because they require plenty of surrounding air. As tempting as it may be to trade the Revels for something more appropriate, I'm still clinging to the notion that I'll someday they'll take up residence in a full-blown, bona-fide, died-in-the-wool home theater.

 

[JStewart]

Well, I think the next step would be to put a layout on paper and see how things will actually fit in the room with the two rows of seating. Since you have experience with Revels (were they in The Green Room?) it might help sort out what placement for 2 channel would look like in the new room to compare with that experience.

Sadly its not my choice to make, but if it were I would want to have either the audio or video give me the wow factor I'd be looking for and why I'd opt for a ceiling mount pull down acoustically transparent screen. Bigger will be better for the screen and give you a "theater" experience and you could at least place the Revels further from the sidewalls for your two channel it that helps. I don't think you'll get past an audio compromise with 2 rows of seating. Maybe I'm wrong. It will be good if I were.