Synyrgy Cynyma II ( Pronounced: Lynyrd Skynyrd Too)

[1_sufferin_mind]

Leaving a string tied to my finger...

All of this planning is a good learning exercise, but I need to remember it’s just an exercise. Measurements will be needed to help address real-world acoustic issues. And critical listening sessions will be needed to dial-in SS&I as best as HT compromises and dimensional constraints will allow.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

N E W S F L A S H !!!

My budget has been increased to $10k by my most loving wife! She says it's advance compensation for the major lifestyle change I'll be subjected to when her mother and sister move in. They're awesome people, so we should be able to resolve any differences that arise.

The $10k will be distributed across projector, screen, subwoofer, surrounds, & phono cartdrige. Actually, it will also be used for auxiliary cooling of both the room and the equipment closet. A mini-split A/C system (~$1k - $1.5k installed) seems to be the way to go for QUIET OPERATION, high capacity, and minimally intrusive building mods.

Here's my proposed budget allocation—edited on 07/27/19 to add ranges—(please feel free to comment):

• $1000 - $2000 Used JVC projector
• $1000 - $2000 Tensioned Drop-Down AT Screen
• $2000 - $3000 Subwoofer(s)
• $ 500 - $1000 Surrounds
• $ 500 - $1500 Phono Cartridge
• $1500 - $2000 Mini-Split A/C
• $ 500 - $1000 Cables/Accessories

Lo Estimate = $7000
Hi Estimate = $12500

Hmmm... easy come, easy go. My estimated max budget is much more than my actual budget. Go figure. Well as recognized below, I’ll need to re-evaluate budgeted items as the project progresses and my true priorities reveal themselves!

EDIT 07/29/19: Another budgeting setback! It turns out I quoted a fixed-frame masking system. Seymour’s drop-down system is listed on their website as a 45% cost adder. YIKES! I’m still trying to come to grips with the chest-crushing $2k price tag of the screen! Another $1k is unacceptable. I’ll probably speak with Seymour first to see what they recommend in terms of DIY.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Learning from past mistakes is always a good thing. It may be time to determine if I misplaced my priorities.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Reviewing my recent budget change uncovered a mistake of sorts. More discussion with the missus revealed that the HT seating is included in the house furnishing budget. What a woman. She’s my hero! I am extremely fortunate to be blessed with such a loving, generous wife!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

So here’s the deal:

• All you helpers are giving so much good, useful advice that I’m pleased with the way my theater is fleshing out! Sounds like there’s a “but” coming, but there isn’t.
• I don’t want to lock the amount budgeted for one category because it might affect opportunities for another one, so I revised the amounts from single values into a range of values.
• Some budgeted values are guesstimates because I still have unanswered questions I’d like to explore.
• Stay tuned !

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

A used JVC X70R projector is the first piece of the puzzle that’s been locked down. It wasn’t as much a chosen model as it was a recommended brand. That model just happened to be in the right place at he right time for what I thought was a good price. I did negotiate $200 off the asking price as compensation for the possibility of short bulb life.

With the projector decision out of the way, it’s now time to revisit screen considerations. I’m still having doubts that my 16:9 decision is the way to go. New information I found on JVC’s site leads me to believe that the unit’s built-in features may be able to reformat the picture to fit the screen. I’m intrigued by peoples’ descriptions of a CinemaScope presentation, but am hesitant to give up too much 16:9 HD area. I’ll be exploring options back in my Projector & Screen Thread

I also plan to prepare a blacked-out front wall using black paint and/or velvet. The remainder of the room, including ceiling, will be a dark/navy blue. I thought about designing around a brown color scheme, but blue shades will complement my grey & silver L/C/R. I’m still open to suggestions, so fire away!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Choosing a 16:9 HD screen over a 2.35:1 CinemaScope shape will give me the largest images for the content I plan to watch. I’ve hopefully done enough homework to I avoid buyers’ remorse.

My decision to go with a top-shelf screen has more to do with sound quality than anything else. Comparing vendor specs shows that the Seymour AT screens have minimal acoustic affect in both magnitude and frequency response. They also offer the only drop-down with velvet borders. That should help give my HT viewing that WOW-factor someone mentioned earlier (apologies, but I can’t remember who).

I’ve been re-evaluating my priorities, and decided not to be as ambitious with either the surrounds or the phono cartridge. Their price ranges have been drastically cut to allow for a higher subwoofer budget—I have my sights set on the Seaton Sound SubMersive F2+/F2- master/slave pair! Bwwwaa-hah-ha!
@thrillcat suggested the Hana EL for $425. The audio press loves this cart for its “musicality,” a priority trait I seek out when choosing or matching system components.

I’m not interest in accurate, revealing, or neutral because those traits limit enjoyment of lower quality source material. Incorporating known-musical components in my system lets me listen to about 85% of my collection without cringing or diving for the eject button!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Falling back to reality... It's tempting to target the Seaton pair for my upgrade, but I can't really destroy my budget. While a pair would help even out response, the SQ only needs to be golden in the money seat--or until I can save for the slave!

I've decided that the money is better spent replacing some of the drivers on my 15 year old mains/center. They've been pushed hard at times, and while they're rated for very high power, amplifier clipping can take its toll. Slow deterioration over the years is hard to assess without direct comparison to properly operating units. I've checked with Revel, and they still have replacement drivers for both my mains and my center:

1. Tweeter (Salon) QTY. 2 $450.32 each
2. Midrange (Salon) QTY. 2 $228.90 each
3. Tweeter (Voice) QTY. 1 $477.50 each
4. Midrange (Voice) QTY. 1 $228.90 each

Yes, around $2k is a little salty just to replace drivers. But I believe restoring their midrange and treble to like-new performance should improve the whole front stage. I’ve no idea how my used center was previously treated. It can sound a little ragged around the edges at times, but then again... the design is not forgiving of poor source quality. Yet again, this old geezer’s hearing isn’t what it used to be!

So If nothing else, ordering replacements while they’re still available is good insurance for a catastrophic event (like accidentally cranking up max gain on your mic preamp before engaging REW test tones, DOH!).

Or would my money be better spent on a recap of the crossovers first? That’s assuming Harman would sell them to me. Even so, I’ve seen their innards. Their crossover boards are assembled and soldered above my pay grade. My only choice may be to but the entire assembly—if available.

Now tell me what you really think!

 

[Bpape]

Does seem like a lot to refurb speakers which have not failed. On the other hand, you could do the refurb, then sell them and use the additional funds for the upgrade?

 

[NBPK402]

I would think the crossovers should be looked at if you are going to replace the drivers...personally I would wait until you know a driver is bad before replacing them. I would open the speakers up and test the crossover to see if it is failing first.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Does seem like a lot to refurb speakers which have not failed.

Mr. Bpape, so nice to hear from you again! Are you still with GIK? Yes, it is a salty proposition, even though the $2k price is just a fraction of the Salons’ retail price.

I would think the crossovers should be looked at if you are going to replace the drivers...

Good idea. Caps will probably fail before the surrounds, but I’m no expert.

Revel informed me that the midrange driver (common to all three L/C/R) is improved over the original, and would be worth replacing. The tweeters should be okay given the generous travel of their surrounds, and lack of ferrofluids to dry out. I think I’ll go for the three midrange drivers. I’d also like to have an extra tweeter for the center on hand, as these are in short supply and differ from those in the mains.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

I would buy the pieces you need the most first, and get the best you can...then when you have more money buy the remaining items.

$1.5 for a sub should fetch you quite a beast!

I see 18” deep JTR S1 and S2 everywhere.

Multiple subs will even out your bass throughout the room. I say 2 or 4 subs!

All of you are right! I do need subs the most, because I’ve been running what I consider to be an entry-level to high end woofage. I originally considered all the usual suspects from SVS, PSA, HSU, etc. until coming across Seaton. After reading the accolades showered on the SubMersive’s musical finesse as well as its ability to pressurize a room to the single digits, well, I couldn’t resist. Half my (increased) budget is now spent... trigger pulled on the F2+/- master/slave pair:

https://seatonsound.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/F2-VCherry-pair1.jpg

 

[JStewart]

All of you are right! I do need subs the most, because I’ve been running what I consider to be an entry-level to high end woofage. I originally considered all the usual suspects from SVS, PSA, HSU, etc. until coming across Seaton. After reading the accolades showered on the SubMersive’s musical finesse as well as its ability to pressurize a room to the single digits, well, I couldn’t resist. Half my (increased) budget is now spent... trigger pulled on the F2+/- master/slave pair:

https://seatonsound.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/F2-VCherry-pair1.jpg View attachment 23894

That’s awesome. Congrats!!!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

...and thanks right back!

It was tough to slash items from my budget to fund a major subwoofer upgrade. It was also tough to pass up some heavy hitters and high value models that would probably fit my needs with similar results. I’ve even had a couple in my room on trial.

But the Seaton F2’s push the right buttons for me. They set a very high bar for sound quality, they’re gorgeous, and they’ll last a lifetime. I’ve never gone wrong with a component known for its musicality, so I can’t wait to be thrilled!

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Revisiting driver replacement for my L/C/R, I would like to mention that I am not totally crazy (just partially so). I finally found a person with my speaker model who hears the same distortion I’ve been trying to describe! His post
reassures me Im doing the right thing.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Revised Budget

• $1250 - Used JVC projector
• $2000 - Tension Drop-Down AT Screen
• $5000 - Subwoofers
• $0 - Surrounds
• $750 - Phono Cartridge
• $0 - Mini-Split A/C
• $0 - Cables/Accessories
• $500 - Center ch replacement tweeter
• $1000 - GIK Soffit Range-limited Bass Traps

Slightly over $10k budget with sacrificed cooling equipment. Cables, accessories, paint, etc. will need alternate funding.

 

[Bpape]

No. I'm no longer with GIK. Just back to running my own company.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Just back to running my own company.

Well congratulations and good luck! Is your new business related to acoustics? Can we discuss your products without violating forum policy? If not, feel free to shoot me a PM.

I only ask because your association with GIK reminded me I’m committing a common audio transgression by upgrading equipment without upgrading the room! I need to add to my collection of ASC panels and traps. Many professionals agree you can never have enough bass trapping; you run out of room before you reach that goal. My gut feeling (without research) is to take advantage of vertical space in my dimension-challenged room and employ soffit traps.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

Cooling the equipment closet is a priority, but it is also an unknown. I will need to save enough between now and next Spring (or soon after) if problems are to be avoided. My contingency plan involves strategically placing fans (muffin and larger) to draw heat away from source gear and out of the closet into the adjoining room.

A sister-plan involves installing a window A/C unit in the adjoining room and rearranging some of the fans to push cool air into the closet and circulate it back out again.

It’s unclear if either of those much cheaper options would be louder than a mini-split, but I would guess multiple sources of open-air fan blades are not very quiet. It remains to be seen how much they would contribute to the HT noise floor even with the theater-side door shut.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

In my past dealings with high end audio, I’m unsure why I’ve always been surprised to hear the designer or president answer their own phone. Or why I’ve always been thrilled by the personal attention and access to deep knowledge. Maybe it’s because that type of red carpet service isn’t available from mass market companies (that I know of).

I’m learning Seaton Sound is one of those high end companies who take humble pride in their accomplishments and keep their experts accessible to their customers. And I’m sure I’ll be thrilled to meet Mark Seaton if we cross paths this weekend. I’m traveling to the Chicago area to pick up my used JVC projector tomorrow and realized his office is close by. A couple of quick emails later and I had an invite!

 

[Todd Anderson]

A used JVC X70R projector is the first piece of the puzzle that’s been locked down. It wasn’t as much a chosen model as it was a recommended brand. That model just happened to be in the right place at he right time for what I thought was a good price. I did negotiate $200 off the asking price as compensation for the possibility of short bulb life.

With the projector decision out of the way, it’s now time to revisit screen considerations. I’m still having doubts that my 16:9 decision is the way to go. New information I found on JVC’s site leads me to believe that the unit’s built-in features may be able to reformat the picture to fit the screen. I’m intrigued by peoples’ descriptions of a CinemaScope presentation, but am hesitant to give up too much 16:9 HD area. I’ll be exploring options back in my Projector & Screen Thread

I also plan to prepare a blacked-out front wall using black paint and/or velvet. The remainder of the room, including ceiling, will be a dark/navy blue. I thought about designing around a brown color scheme, but blue shades will complement my grey & silver L/C/R. I’m still open to suggestions, so fire away!

Ok. I'm just catching up (It's been a crazy few weeks with vacation, etc). Congrats on the JVC!!!! Great choice. Great great choice! You won't be disappointed.

DEFINITELY go blackout on the paint if you can... If you look in the showcase you can find my theater room... the first 40% of the room is black out. BUT, if you can do the front wall, that's a start. Do not... I repeat... do not go with some crazy color for your other walls and ceiling. The next best option (beyond black) is some sort of grey. Don't go putting a red in the room.

Yes, JVC has memory lens, so you can switch between, cinemascope and 16:9 at the push of a button. Ultimately, you'll need to decide how many movies vs TV you'll be watching. If the majority is movies, go cinemascope on the screen. If the other way, go 16:9.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Falling back to reality... It's tempting to target the Seaton pair for my upgrade, but I can't really destroy my budget. While a pair would help even out response, the SQ only needs to be golden in the money seat--or until I can save for the slave!

I've decided that the money is better spent replacing some of the drivers on my 15 year old mains/center. They've been pushed hard at times, and while they're rated for very high power, amplifier clipping can take its toll. Slow deterioration over the years is hard to assess without direct comparison to properly operating units. I've checked with Revel, and they still have replacement drivers for both my mains and my center:

1. Tweeter (Salon) QTY. 2 $450.32 each
2. Midrange (Salon) QTY. 2 $228.90 each
3. Tweeter (Voice) QTY. 1 $477.50 each
4. Midrange (Voice) QTY. 1 $228.90 each

Yes, around $2k is a little salty just to replace drivers. But I believe restoring their midrange and treble to like-new performance should improve the whole front stage. I’ve no idea how my used center was previously treated. It can sound a little ragged around the edges at times, but then again... the design is not forgiving of poor source quality. Yet again, this old geezer’s hearing isn’t what it used to be!

So If nothing else, ordering replacements while they’re still available is good insurance for a catastrophic event (like accidentally cranking up max gain on your mic preamp before engaging REW test tones, DOH!).

Or would my money be better spent on a recap of the crossovers first? That’s assuming Harman would sell them to me. Even so, I’ve seen their innards. Their crossover boards are assembled and soldered above my pay grade. My only choice may be to but the entire assembly—if available.

Now tell me what you really think!

I wish I could comment with some logic and intelligence on this. My gut says, if you're replacing components, replace the drivers (not the crossover).

 

[NBPK402]

I wish I could comment with some logic and intelligence on this. My gut says, if you're replacing components, replace the drivers (not the crossover).

I would say replace the caps on the crossover if the drivers are in need of replacing. My experience on my old Klipschs
La Scalas was that the crossover caps go bad before the drivers do. This was on a pair of speakers that were over 20 years old too (with original drivers).

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

You and the others are probably right: why replace anything that hasn’t failed? At first, I only wanted to replace a few drivers based on an elusive distortion. Then I thought about replacing most of them based on future unavailability (mine are 14 years old). But after realizing I could sell them, scrap the driver budget, and get a modern pair under warranty that would fit better in my small (for 2-channel) listening room... well, I now have doubts.

 

[1_sufferin_mind]

DEFINITELY go blackout on the paint if you can... If you look in the showcase you can find my theater room... the first 40% of the room is black out. BUT, if you can do the front wall, that's a start. Do not... I repeat... do not go with some crazy color for your other walls and ceiling. The next best option (beyond black) is some sort of grey. Don't go putting a red in the room.

Hmmm... good catch! I hadn’t thought about the area immediately in front of the screen. Since it’s a drop-down about five feet from the front wall, the room will need to be blacked out further down its length. That doesn’t leave much room for a any kind of color scheme.

Now that you mention it, red is calling my name