Synyrgy Cynyma II ( Pronounced: Lynyrd Skynyrd Too)

1_sufferin_mind

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I'm very intrigued by this idea of speakers sliding into multiple positions. There's gotta be a track system of some kind that could be retro-fitted for the purpose.
What about a shorter version of the train-rail type used to mount camera dollies in front of stages to film performers?
 

Travis Ballstadt

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Maybe not too crazy. Why not adapt one of those rail systems they mount the camera on to film concert videos? Instead of spikes, locking casters might be used!

Google "DIY Camera Dolly". PVC Pipe and skateboard wheels.
 

Travis Ballstadt

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I wish I had a magic formula to post that you could just enter in a couple variables and give you the perfect solution. Unfortunately, my room was going through a remodel when I locked in my current arrangement. My screen was already there, my LCR were already placed, projector was mounted. I basically put my first row in the room and watched a couple movies before I locked in their final location, and then I sized the riser based on that. It's a lot easier that way than trying to visualize on paper.

Factors that allow me to do what I'm doing:

My LCR speakers are recessed into the front wall behind the screen - there were windows and a removed in-wall heater in perfect locations that I was able to take advantage of.

My 2nd and 3rd rows do not recline.

My front row seats don't move back when they recline, the top moves down and the seat moves out. Distance is the same whether reclined or upright.

The two above points allow me to skimp on legroom for rows 2 and 3. Plus, I factored in how frequently someone in the room would have to "sneak out" to use the restroom or whatever, and it's literally never. So I didn't allow extra space for "in the dark maneuvers".

I just realized what "in the dark maneuvers" sounds like, but that's not what I was referring to. ;)

My second row was actually more planned/rigid than either of the other two rows. I wanted the back of the 2nd row couch to be as close to directly below the projector mounting position as possible to prevent people from bumping their head on it - once you're on the riser, your head is close to the ceiling.

My third row is really ideal, the commercial movie theater seats take up minimal room, which allowed me to keep them a couple feet off the back wall and put my sub behind there. Plus they're more comfortable when mounted on a level surface than the sloped floor of a commercial theater.
 

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1_sufferin_mind

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Installation could be tricky (I’m not a handyman so wouldn’t know.). The end stops would need to allow repeatable positioning accurate at least to the inch. No room for curves to accommodate toe-in, so the rails would need to follow a straight path in the general direction of the nearest corner. As close as the speakers are to the walls to begin with, my gut feeling is that it may work in a larger space.

That sounds strangely familiar!
 

1_sufferin_mind

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I wish I had a magic formula to post that you could just enter in a couple variables and give you the perfect solution. Unfortunately, my room was going through a remodel when I locked in my current arrangement. My screen was already there, my LCR were already placed, projector was mounted. I basically put my first row in the room and watched a couple movies before I locked in their final location, and then I sized the riser based on that. It's a lot easier that way than trying to visualize on paper.
Magic formula? Oh yeah, where do I sign up for THAT! I’m learning your advice the hard way. While a picture’s worth a thousand words, an audition’s worth a thousand pictures. No doubt, listening sessions and room rearranging will be on the agenda for dialing in the best A/V experience for this room.

I’m more motivated to make the best with the room and it’s constraints, especially with everybody’s vote of confidence. Designing on paper for now is an OCD blast in any case!

Factors that allow me to do what I'm doing:

My LCR speakers are recessed into the front wall behind the screen - there were windows and a removed in-wall heater in perfect locations that I was able to take advantage of.

My 2nd and 3rd rows do not recline.

My front row seats don't move back when they recline, the top moves down and the seat moves out. Distance is the same whether reclined or upright.
My seats are also a wall-hugger variety, but they do extend backward a few inches when reclined. You wouldn’t want to lay in them that way, though—more than uncomfortable!

I like your idea of non-recliners in the 2nd row. I used it in one of my more recent proposed layouts, but it got rejected for a small, recommended screen size. Little did I know at the time that 10’ from a 100” screen is okay (for some people).

I’m struggling a bit to absorb all this new information, so please excuse oversights and repeats. I’ll review the thread for everyone’s recommendations and references as soon as I can.
 

1_sufferin_mind

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The builder’s responses to my proposed design changes are in. There are no issues with any door mods—including the access door to the equipment closet suggested by @JStewart .

Nor were there issues with any of my electrical wiring requests, except a $2400 price tag. I knew the bill would be salty, but it feels like a fair shake. I’m getting all the “upgrades” normally associated with dedicated 15A and 20A lines on a single phase.

I’m getting the convenience of multiple dual and quad outlets distributed throughout the room—including generous numbers in the equipment closet, and one in the floor for motorized seats. I really thought they’d reject that one as a code violation. What if someone spills a drink on it? o_O

And finally, I’m getting an unsolicited bonus of a dedicated 100A sub-panel!

Anyone care to comment on whether they think the electrical work is cost effective? I know I could do some of the work myself, as I have in the past. But I’m older now and sweat on myself much easier; not to mention cramp up and sprain things. And besides, wiring from a main panel to the second floor is trickier.

23272
 

1_sufferin_mind

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My generous, kind-hearted wife has given me a green light on a single row of seats! Gotta love her.

It’s good to know the option’s there, but my last 2-row layout (Post #71) may still work. The distances recommended by calculators aren’t subjective. I’d like to find out what size screen would realistically work for all seats at the 7ft MLP viewing distance. Maybe a 96inch?
 

JStewart

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nd finally, I’m getting an unsolicited bonus of a dedicated 100A sub-panel!

Anyone care to comment on whether they think the electrical work is cost effective?

Where will the subpanel be located? Guessing costs might be minimized by locating near the theater such as the equipment room closet.
Do you want a ceiling outlet for the projector? And a chase for the hdmi?
Think of the $2400 as money well spent vs having to do it after the fact. You probably just SAVED $10k or more. You’re supposed to feel better now. :)
 

JStewart

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It’s good to know the option’s there, but my last 2-row layout (Post #71) may still work. The distances recommended by calculators aren’t subjective. I’d like to find out what size screen would realistically work for all seats at the 7ft MLP viewing distance. Maybe a 96inch?

You'll want more opinions on this, but FWIW here's mine....

I sat a chair so that eyes were 7ft from 80" wide 16x9 screen and spent a couple of hours watching.

Streaming 1080p with Apple TV was just on the wrong side of acceptable. (Stranger Things Season 3) Too much noise, grain, whatever.. Streaming 4K to a pixel shifting JVC was just acceptable.

Switching to Interstellar 1080p BD was better than 4k stream and had good picture quality, but I noticed a few things that I usually won't, perhaps because I'm used to something different....
At the beginning of the movie there are interviews and they are intended to have more grain. I found the grain more distracting and I found during a closeup where the subject moved her head very distracting as it covered more "distance" within the field of view.

Some background scenery, normally not in focus for the shot tended to stand out more.

The graphics shown on the many screens in this movie which would benefit from UHD resolution anyway stood out more at 7 ft.

This movie has both 16x9 and 2.4 or 2.35 (not sure which) scenes. At 7ft I preferred the cinema wide aspect.

The planet scene where the spacecraft gets hit by the giant wave has a lot of clouds and sky that has the slightest amount of visible noise at 7 ft that I didn't notice when I moved back.

So to sum it up, at 7ft, I'd be OK watching 1080p discs in cinema-scope. I wouldn't be ok streaming 1080p. Some of the 1080p BD observations I think I'd become used to and some were so short in duration that if I wasn't critically watching for problems I may not have cared much.

Also, att 7ft I would definitely want my eyes level with the bottom 1/3rd of the screen. Eyes level to the bottom of the screen was not comfortable at all with 16x9. Reclining would probable overcome this.

A couple of times I moved back to 8ft when something was bothersome and it helped quite a bit.


And now its time for some viewing angle numbers:
- THX viewing angle recommendation 36 degrees.
- 7ft distance 80" wide 51 degrees
- 8ft distance 80" wide 45 degrees.
- 10ft distance 100" wide also 45 degrees (for reference as IIRC this is @thrillcat 's set-up. I didn't calculate this until after watching and found it interesting that it matched the viewing angle at 8ft which I thought was pretty good with 1080p disc.

If you have access to yours or another 65" set to experiment with respect to field of view. The higher light output could be annoying though.
- 5ft distance with 65" 16x9 diag is 51 degrees.
- 5.8 ft distance with 65" 16x9 diag is 44 degrees.
- 7.3 ft distance with 65" 16x9 diag is 36 degrees THX recommendation.

Another experiment I read about somewhere, is to mark the top rim of a pair of glasses at the point where the rim intersects the edges of the screen for a known distance/viewing angle. Take the glasses to a movie theater and find the row where it matches. Watch movie.
 

1_sufferin_mind

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It would probably be a good idea if I went to a big box or specialty store for an audition. That way I'd get an idea what my preferences are.

EDIT: And that's exactly what the go-to article of the past few days recommends!
 
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1_sufferin_mind

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Popping in with a quick financial update: my budget is actually what I’ve coined to be a “fixed-balance, dynamically-allocated” fund.
It has a cap, but categorized amounts (i.e. subwoofer, surrounds, tc.) change based on particular models chosen.

I’m convinced a used JVC 1080p projector will make me quite happy. I’m pretty sure I can get a projector/lamp combo for around $1k. Now I need to come up with a high-quality tensioned drop-down, AT screen for around $1k - &1.5k. From the models I’ve found so far, that task will be a tall order. I’m almost tempted to get cheaper brands/models knowing they could be replaced multiple times before reaching the extravagant cost ($2k - $2.5k) of the big boys.

In any case, assuming I can get by with $2.5k for projector/bulb/screen, that leaves $3.5k for phono cartridge and subwoofer/surrounds.
A priority allocation of $1k for a phono cartridge, would have me settling for a $1.5k subwoofer and $250 for each of four new surrounds.

EDIT: My people skills continue to dazzle! Chances are a $1500 sub is not something you “settle on.”
 
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1_sufferin_mind

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You'll want more opinions on this, but FWIW here's mine....

I sat a chair so that eyes were 7ft from 80" wide 16x9 screen and spent a couple of hours watching.

<SNIP>

So to sum it up, at 7ft, I'd be OK watching 1080p discs in cinema-scope. I wouldn't be ok streaming 1080p. Some of the 1080p BD observations I think I'd become used to and some were so short in duration that if I wasn't critically watching for problems I may not have cared much.

Also, att 7ft I would definitely want my eyes level with the bottom 1/3rd of the screen. Eyes level to the bottom of the screen was not comfortable at all with 16x9. Reclining would probable overcome this.

A couple of times I moved back to 8ft when something was bothersome and it helped quite a bit.


And now its time for some viewing angle numbers:
- THX viewing angle recommendation 36 degrees.
- 7ft distance 80" wide 51 degrees
- 8ft distance 80" wide 45 degrees.
- 10ft distance 100" wide also 45 degrees (for reference as IIRC this is @thrillcat 's set-up. I didn't calculate this until after watching and found it interesting that it matched the viewing angle at 8ft which I thought was pretty good with 1080p disc.

If you have access to yours or another 65" set to experiment with respect to field of view. The higher light output could be annoying though.
- 5ft distance with 65" 16x9 diag is 51 degrees.
- 5.8 ft distance with 65" 16x9 diag is 44 degrees.
- 7.3 ft distance with 65” 16x9 diag is 36 degrees THX recommendation.

Another experiment I read about somewhere, is to mark the top rim of a pair of glasses at the point where the rim intersects the edges of the screen for a known distance/viewing angle. Take the glasses to a movie theater and find the row where it matches. Watch movie.
Thanks for the detailed analysis! Because I’m at ~9’ from a 60” flat panel, my field of view is calculated as only 27.2deg. That explains why I’m becoming dissatisfied with immersion as far as picture size is concerned.

Nice trick you mentioned for relative distance/angle, except I read the opposite: go to theater and sit in normal spot where comfortable. Then mark glasses and translate to HT room for same experience. I suppose it can be done either way depending on what you’re trying to accomplish.

Your experience with viewing distance and source quality suggests I’ll be happier without a back row, but we already knew that, didn’t we?!
 

Travis Ballstadt

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Hana EL cartridge: $425.

If you're looking at 1080p projectors, don't rule out the Panasonic AE8000u. I sold mine for $800 last winter when I bought my JVC, and that was on the high end because it had a newish bulb.
 

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Hana EL/SL review link added for my reference.
 
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^^^
You have no idea! The 2nd guessing would gnaw away at me. Anyway, your suggestion to sketch the layout was golden.
 

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In any case, assuming I can get by with $2.5k for projector/bulb/screen, that leaves $3.5k for phono cartridge and subwoofer/surrounds.
A priority allocation of $1k for a phono cartridge, would have me settling for a $1.5k subwoofer and $250 for each of four new surrounds.

EDIT: My people skills continue to dazzle! Chances are a $1500 sub is not something you “settle on.”
In my planning/learning/shopping frenzy, I forgot to ask the collective for their opinions on my budget allocation.
Do you think my $6k is distributed well among the components I need: used projector/screen, subwoofer, surrounds, & phono cartridge?
 

1_sufferin_mind

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Trigger-time may be around the corner for some items when my funds become available in another couple of weeks!
 

Todd Anderson

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$1.5 for a sub should fetch you quite a beast! SVS SB-4000 comes to mind. I'm sure Power Sound Audio has several in that range too.

Frankly, I think you might want to think about dual subs... drop $1.5K on those Monolith 12-inchers.
 

1_sufferin_mind

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I’ve not entertained the idea of dual subs. Maybe I should, especially for the Monoliths’ quality and price. A lot of bang for the buck!

Now may be a good time to remind myself I’m no subwoofer expert, so please correct me when I’m wrong.

System integration issues that dual subs introduce might be tamed with good room correction software. But it’s best to start with optimal placement. My current room layout has very limited options, as you can see from the diagram below (Hint: Every division represents 1 foot).

23468


I haven’t started a subwoofer decision thread yet, so I don’t want to go into great detail here, but I will say for now that I don’t just want to change my bass.... I want to take it to the next level. I’m more than satisfied with my PSA’s performance on movies. But in my system, I’m unhappy with it’s pitch definition and transient recovery.

I’m not a bass head, but I do enjoy clean and powerful subsonic fun. My current sub serves up that fun in spades. I wanted a sub that would rumble the slab under the theater, and my PSA does not disappoint. But I value musical character more. Maybe it’s my fault! Maybe I could integrate the .1 better with the 5. Maybe I could place it better in the room. Either way, I truly believe it’s outclassed by the quality of bass delivered by my Revels. I’m unsure how far up the food chain I’ll need to climb before reaching a worthy match. Maybe the Monoliths are just what I need right now for the budget I need to keep.

Thanks for the lead, Todd, I’ll be sure to follow up on it!
 
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1_sufferin_mind

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Emotiva XMC-2
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Emotiva XPA-5
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McCormack DNA-1 Custom Monoblocks (On Standby)
Other Amp
Woo Audio WA6se w/ Audeze LCD-2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-95
Front Speakers
Revel Ultima Salon
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice
Surround Speakers
PSB Image B5
Subwoofers
Seaton Sound Submersive F2+/- pair
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cary SLP98P / VPI SuperScout with JMW9 & Hana MH
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED 65CX
Screen
TBD
Streaming Subscriptions
JVC X70R Proj ; PS Audio PWD w/ Streaming Bridge
^^^ Enabler!
Not really.

Your own current build reflects a level of complexity and refinement which leaves me in its dust! Bass bins?
Really?

It sounds like you’re seasoned enough for a great BBQ. No doubt your advice will come in handy again.
Really!
 
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