My New Theater

[bkeeler10]

Oh, the dust . . .

Any renovations in the theater or A/V space?

 

[Todd Anderson]

Right now, no major plans... perhaps removing all windows that are stealthfully covered and concealed. Main goal is a kitchen renovation, building a room over the garage, and reconfiguring basement spaces... perhaps moving a wall or two. But, right now, we are drawing up plans and costing it out. So, final scope remains to be seen.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Well i look forward to seeing both of your projects complete. @Todd Anderson yours sounds intense. I can’t even imagine doing that. In my community that kind of renovation would be a tough sell. It would cost half the value of the home and the home wouldn’t be worth that much. Your in a more desirable area than I am though, so it probably works better in your favor than for me. With my house, if it gets too big and expensive you would be competing with prices in Naperville which is a more upscale town with better schools.

My wife and i are in Florida right now and once again feel like we want to move here. Every year we come visit some part of Florida and think we would enjoy living here. The problem is if we moved it would be into a high rise condo. That means no more theater for me .

 

[bkeeler10]

Actually Todd's sounds a lot like ours. I think ours might be more involved. We are doing the following

1. Adding on out the back, (theater downstairs, extension of kitchen and adding great room, laundry closet upstairs, and also adding new master bath upstairs). New staircase from great room to back yard.
2. Remodel/reconfigure kitchen, including moving plumbing, redoing electrical and cutting new window.
3. Demolition of existing master bath, to become master bed closet on one side and kitchen pantry on other side.
4. Cut bigger window in master bedroom to meet fire code.
5. Remove walls of one bedroom downstairs to open it up to hallway and make small family room. Cut new window in this room.
6. Build wall on one side of family room to create bigger bedroom. Remove fireplace from this room.
7. Remodel downstairs bathroom, including removing laundry closet in that room.
8. Replace furnace, add air conditioning.

There are only two bedrooms and one bathroom that are remaining completely untouched (and we're considering remodeling that bathroom now). Front room is mostly untouched (sheetrock patching mainly). Every other room has some modification going on in it, mostly major modification. And we're trying to live in it. I wish we could have moved out during construction, but that wasn't possible.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Wow. That's a lot! I can't even imagine the insanity you've been going through.

@Matthew J Poes : why a condo? That would be a serious no-go for me! Sun and fun or no sun and fun!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Wow. That's a lot! I can't even imagine the insanity you've been going through.

@Matthew J Poes : why a condo? That would be a serious no-go for me! Sun and fun or no sun and fun!

Well my wife has always lived in a condo or apartment. I lived in one for the last ten years. We find with our lifestyle and personality it’s hard to keep up on normal home ownership responsibility and can’t afford to pay someone to do it all for us. A condo would reduce our responsibility. We also think our house is too big for our needs. We are both total city people. We like high rise buildings with great views.

If I moved into a Condo I think I would have the living room or bedroom customized to allow the theater to still work. It wouldn’t be a dark dedicated room anymore but I’ve used ALR screens before to good effect. I would probably have the space soundproofed same as my theater. I would have the screen and speakers built into a custom wall unit that hides everything. Wires run, etc. that would allow me to still watch movies at loud volume without bothering people.

A condo living friend of mine has also suggested looking for a condo building with a community area that either includes a theater or where they are open to that. Then outfitting it with equipment of choice. I’d be ok with that as long as i could have control over the equipment and setup. I don’t really care if other people would also use it.

Mind you this is all dreaming right now. The fun in the sun areas of Florida are not very family friendly. Great for family vacations but the actual communities people live in are either retirement communities or often modest high crime areas with really poor schools. While we found some exceptions, any of the famous ones like Clearwater, Tampa Bay, St. Pete, Miami Beach, Sunny Isle, and West Palm Beach have among the worst schools in the country. The areas with nice schools around those communities are inland, mostly houses, more expensive, so not what we want.

 

[NBPK402]

Are you going to use green glue, and putty pads...Both will go a long way toward making sure as little sound escapes the room as possible.

 

[NBPK402]

Get the Dirac... you will not be disappointed!

 

[bkeeler10]

Are you going to use green glue, and putty pads...Both will go a long way toward making sure as little sound escapes the room as possible.

Green glue between double layers of drywall everywhere, and putty pads on electrical penetrations into the two most critical walls. Although after getting done with the green glue, I only ended up using about half of what I should have, so it's not quite as good as it should be.

Anyway, I did my best to seal those walls airtight. However, I do have weak spots in places unfortunately, due to budget, timeline, or unexpected construction issues, or simple oversight on my part until after sheetrock was hung. For example, I had intended to seal the perimeters of the sheetrock walls with acoustic caulk, but many of the floor/wall gaps were much too big to accept caulk. I probably should have gotten to work cutting strips of drywall to fill that in sufficiently to caulk the gap. It's not quite as big a deal there as in a typical wall, because there is concrete almost immediately behind those walls and up for about a foot, with insulation in that very small gap. So there's over a foot's worth of insulation before sound gets to open air or the other side of the partition. I also have a return duct in the ceiling that opens into the theater, and it is bare round metal duct which will put a lot of breakout noise into the ceiling cavity. Fortunately it is in the theater ceiling for less than two feet before exiting, but still another significant path. And then I have supply ductwork in the theater ceiling that feeds the upper floor, so there will be breakin noise there too. Such are the compromises one would like to not make, but which had to be done.

I will conduct transmission loss measurements when everything is done, and I'm very curious to see how far away from theoretical STC/TL I am. It is generally expected that field-tested transmission loss will be about 5 points lower than STC due to unexpected flanking paths, which I know I have some of.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Green glue between double layers of drywall everywhere, and putty pads on electrical penetrations into the two most critical walls. Although after getting done with the green glue, I only ended up using about half of what I should have, so it's not quite as good as it should be.

Anyway, I did my best to seal those walls airtight. However, I do have weak spots in places unfortunately, due to budget, timeline, or unexpected construction issues, or simple oversight on my part until after sheetrock was hung. For example, I had intended to seal the perimeters of the sheetrock walls with acoustic caulk, but many of the floor/wall gaps were much too big to accept caulk. I probably should have gotten to work cutting strips of drywall to fill that in sufficiently to caulk the gap. It's not quite as big a deal there as in a typical wall, because there is concrete almost immediately behind those walls and up for about a foot, with insulation in that very small gap. So there's over a foot's worth of insulation before sound gets to open air or the other side of the partition. I also have a return duct in the ceiling that opens into the theater, and it is bare round metal duct which will put a lot of breakout noise into the ceiling cavity. Fortunately it is in the theater ceiling for less than two feet before exiting, but still another significant path. And then I have supply ductwork in the theater ceiling that feeds the upper floor, so there will be breakin noise there too. Such are the compromises one would like to not make, but which had to be done.

I will conduct transmission loss measurements when everything is done, and I'm very curious to see how far away from theoretical STC/TL I am. It is generally expected that field-tested transmission loss will be about 5 points lower than STC due to unexpected flanking paths, which I know I have some of.

Let me know how you end up conducting the tests and how it works out. Depending on how I conduct the test I get very different results. I have a tool that is specifically for this purpose but I’m not totally sure I trust the results.

In any case my TL at low frequencies fell far below the theoretical along the back wall of the theater. However I think it was due largely to the door and flanking paths combined. I saw about 15-20 dB or loss where I should have seen about 30-40 dB according to the test results. This was sub 100hz so I do not know if the test results or my measurements are accurate.

 

[NBPK402]

We had excellent results as far as sound exiting the house...115db down to under 70db outside. Our door was a solid core door with 3/4" thick mdf on each side, and we had 2 of them.

 

[bkeeler10]

Sorry got my product lines mixed up.

Jeld Wen Tria R series.
http://www.jeld-wen.com/en-us/produ...l-interior-door#/group=All&model=modelM000810

It’s a top notch door, fire rated, and the STC is over 40.

Hey Matt,

Did you happen to order this door? I did, and then I went to order some Pemko seals and automatic door bottom, and the guy was saying that if a door is STC rated, it usually comes with all the hardware required to meet that rating.

Well, I called Jeld Wen and they looked at my order and said that the door by itself is an STC 30. The gasket set has to be ordered separately, and if it is installed the door is good for STC 43. I did confirm that it is the same door slab, so a good set of seals and an automatic door bottom ought to do the job and get me there.

Just curious how you did it, if in fact you used this door. Thanks.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Hey Matt,

Did you happen to order this door? I did, and then I went to order some Pemko seals and automatic door bottom, and the guy was saying that if a door is STC rated, it usually comes with all the hardware required to meet that rating.

Well, I called Jeld Wen and they looked at my order and said that the door by itself is an STC 30. The gasket set has to be ordered separately, and if it is installed the door is good for STC 43. I did confirm that it is the same door slab, so a good set of seals and an automatic door bottom ought to do the job and get me there.

Just curious how you did it, if in fact you used this door. Thanks.

Sorry for the delay. No I didn't order these doors, I used something else. Similar rating. I've never heard of a door being rated as "just the door" but I guess that's one way to describe it.

Whoever told you that an STC rated door comes with seals is obviously not correct. only soundproof doors sold that way come with the seals. All doors have an STC rating if from a major brand, but most doors obviously don't come with seals. The issue is a little difference, it's that most cheap doors are rated as "glued in place." Misleaing right? You can't equal a glued in place scenario.

I've learned, now that I've lived with my doors for a while, that a single gasket set per door is not necessarily ideal. The doors are not very true and so there are gaps at the top and bottom. Adjustable sets help but aren't perfect. So what I started to learn is that a lot of companies include multiple gasket sets to provide different levels of seal. I'm in the process of adding more seals to my own doors.

 

[bkeeler10]

I've learned, now that I've lived with my doors for a while, that a single gasket set per door is not necessarily ideal. The doors are not very true and so there are gaps at the top and bottom. Adjustable sets help but aren't perfect. So what I started to learn is that a lot of companies include multiple gasket sets to provide different levels of seal. I'm in the process of adding more seals to my own doors.

Thanks Matt. Do you remember off-hand what door gaskets you used? And did you go with an automatic door bottom, or a threshold with a seal for the bottom of the door?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Thanks Matt. Do you remember off-hand what door gaskets you used? And did you go with an automatic door bottom, or a threshold with a seal for the bottom of the door?

I have a mix. I built a custom door structure and built the seals into that. Mine aren't adjustable which I think was a mistake. Doors are not, apparently true. They don't make good contact at the corners. I used the D shaped and the 3 finger type from Pemko. If you need exact models I can look those up.

Pemko is really expensive to buy through typical retailers. I found a supplier that sells to commercial builders and paid about 60% less, but they had a large minimum order. I think I had to spend like $300 or something just to order from them.

Something I've learned that seems to be good is that it's best not to rely on a single gasket. Each of my doors has one full perimeter seal and a few areas have a second seal. I plan to change it to two perimeter seals. One that the door presses against and one that goes around the outside of the door to fill the gap. I noticed a lot of professional doors do this and had a nice conversation with a guy that designs these doors for a studio supplier. He told me they tested lots of gasket arrangements and the dual gaskets made about a 1-2STC difference on door assemblies like this and potentially more on their more soundproof doors.

 

[bkeeler10]

Time marches on and my add-on and theater are still not done. We are getting really close though. Paint is supposed to be entirely done this week, and carpet is supposed to go in some time next week. Time to start building sub boxes and absorption panels/traps. And a screen frame.

I put up the theater sconce lights Saturday and did some of the electrical outlets today. Two pictures attached.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Lookin good! So close I’m sure you can taste the finish line.

 

[bkeeler10]

So they finished carpeting the theater today. I don't have any pictures, since I'm out of town all week, but I will post some when I get back.

I'm waiting on the door, which is supposed to be here this week. Looks like I'm the bottleneck now -- gotta get door seals for two doors, and get going on room treatments. Fortunately, most of the work I have to do on electrical throughout the house is done, so coming up soon I should have more time to work on theater stuff.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

That color looks great.

 

[bkeeler10]

I've attached a picture of the theater with carpet in place. The kids have been sleeping in there the past couple nights for fun, hence the mess.

Door has been received but not yet installed. I think I will order the screen in the next couple days, since there is a three-week lead time or so.

 

[bkeeler10]

Quick update: Theater door should be installed this week. I need to order door seals and get them installed. Still waiting for contractor to install projector hush box, but hopefully that will be within a week too.

I have ordered the Seymour AV acoustically transparent screen (110" wide retractable, 2.35 AR, UF material) and the projector (JVC RS-440). Screen should be here within three weeks, and projector sometime next week most likely.

Next up is to order an AVR (I have decided on the NAD T758v3) and a UHD player (not totally decided, but looking at the new Panny 820). I also need to get acoustic treatments up and running. I'm thinking about building the simpler stuff myself (broadband absorbers) and looking for pre-built diffusion products from the likes of GIK perhaps.

I'm not sure what to do about speakers. I've been waiting on the Chane L series but will probably have to wait a while longer since they're not quite ready. In the interim, I may end up trying the Revel Concerta series since I have connections with Harman and can probably get them at cost.

Finally, gotta get the subwoofers built. I have settled on two Rythmik F18 (18" sealed, 1000 watts each). I will build the boxes and buy the amps and drivers from Rythmik.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Wow... you've been busy. Coming down the home stretch!!! All that new incoming gear sounds pretty exciting... can't wait to see final photos and read listening impressions!

 

[bkeeler10]

Yes, it's about time I say! The gear is the fun part for sure I am very interested to see (hear?) what kind of sound I'll be getting out of this. I mean, literally everything will be changing. Every piece of gear, the room size and shape, the fact that I will have acoustical treatments, the room correction algorithm, everything. There won't be any fair way to compare to what I'm used to, but I expect improvements based on the room characteristics alone. This will be fun!

 

[Todd Anderson]

Once you get it all dialed in, that first movie night is going to be PURE GOLD.

 

[bkeeler10]

A little off-topic, Todd, but did you decide to move forward with your remodeling project?