MQA Reacts to Recent Allegations, Says Youtube Video by GoldenSound Is Fundamentally Flawed

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(May 19, 2021) Last month, YouTuber GoldenSound published a scathing assessment of MQA's legitimacy as a studio-quality lossless codec. His video – I Published Music on TIDAL to Test MQA - MQA Review – has collected more than 219,000 views and become a focal point of discussions on audio forums across the net. The video and its blog-style summary posted on several different forums are presented as measured proof that MQA isn't what it claims to be.

At the risk of oversimplifying the creator's methods and conclusions, GoldenSound essentially placed test files (such as an impulse response, white noise, a -60dB dynamic range test sine, etc.) within a basic acoustic track, encoded it using an automatic MQA encoder, and uploaded it to TIDAL. The intent was to compare a test track to a master file, drawing conclusions through a direct 1-to-1 analysis. Results found significant differences, raising serious questions about MQA's techniques and claims, ultimately concluding that MQA is duping consumers.

Click here to watch GoldenSound's full video.

This isn't the first time MQA has taken heat, and it likely won't be last. Discussions involving the company and its technology are complex, well documented, typically far from flattering, and endlessly controversial. Detractors claim MQA is a solution for a non-problem, lossy in nature, and incapable of definitively "sounding better" than other codecs. Additionally, there's a cloud of suspicion that MQA is a digital rights management-like profiteering platform. On the other hand, supporters claim MQA files sound better, and are unabashedly impressed by the technology's advanced billing – they're willing to hold hands with the tech and take a leap of faith. Of course, both camps likely comprise a sliver of music fans worldwide; most are primarily concerned with portability and convenience.

MQA is unapologetically protective of its intellectual property. For those of you wanting the company to pull back the curtain and reveal all, that's likely never going to happen. IP is IP, and MQA isn't interested in revealing the exact ingredients of its secret sauce. From MQA's point of view, its legitimacy and technical approach has been adequately established through white papers and articles in peer-reviewed journals. And the company is quick to tout its approval by the Recording Industry Association of America, support from major labels and top-flight mastering houses, and creator Bob Stuart's legacy of innovation and industry recognition.

Soon after GoldenSound's video went live, I contacted a colleague at a well-known industry manufacturer, looking to gain some insight from that company's team of product engineers. My hope was to lean on wiser eyes and receive an off-the-record analysis backed by experience in the segment. The manufacturer ultimately responded with a friendly pass – which is completely understandable – but it did lead to a healthy dialog with MQA, which was more than happy to chat. I ultimately asked MQA for a plain-speak evaluation of GoldenSound's conclusions and a detailed explanation of how GoldenSound's test track differs from content like techno and electronica.

MQA supplied its response several weeks ago and is currently planning to release much (if not all) of the response through its own media channel. While on par with its published correspondence with GoldenSound prior to his video's launch, I've decided to summarize the company's stance. What you, the reader, do with this information is entirely up to you. It certainly raises serious questions about GoldenSound's methods and results. However, it doesn't provide any sort of proposal as to how independent analyses of the technology can be performed.

At the most basic level, MQA says GoldenSound's methods were biased and designed to discredit the company and Bob Stuart (MQA's creator), making any conclusions tainted. "We welcome honest and healthy debate," stated MQA. "However, we will not enter into discussion with those shown to be part of the toxic trolling of [our] team and technology."

MQA also says GoldenSound falsely portrayed the company's reaction to his test tracks on TIDAL. GoldenSound claims that MQA deleted his uploaded content from TIDAL; however, MQA says that's not the case. "MQA is neither a music copyright holder nor a distributor," the company explained. "We have no rights to remove content from a service, nor do we have access to the audio. Music is delivered to streaming services by the rights-holders (labels and artists), and the supply chain is either direct or via a distributor or aggregator, in accordance with their agreements."

The company adds that GoldenSound falsely suggests that his content was forcibly published in MQA. "The YouTuber noted that his content was only made available in TIDAL Masters in MQA, suggesting that we had suppressed the 44/16b Redbook version from the HiFi tier. As stated above, MQA has absolutely no role in managing the music within a service."

Beyond those targeted responses, the bulk of MQA's plain speak rebuttal suggests that GoldenSound's tests were "fundamentally flawed," leading to conclusions that are "entirely off the mark." The company confirmed that GoldenSound shared his results prior to publishing his video, but says he failed to accept or act upon its response. "Despite providing him with detailed clarifications to each of his allegations in advance of publishing, he decided to proceed with his inaccurate and defamatory video."

Click here to read MQA's original, full response sent to GoldenSound.

According to MQA, GoldenSound's approach was doomed to fail because it didn't fulfill basic requirements. "The YouTuber ignored our guidance around a central flaw in his test, which is the fact that the encoder he used is designed for musical content and will, by design, fail when attempting to feed it test signals."

GoldenSound's use of non-musical content, says MQA, directly contributed to issues on the output end. "The encoder he had access to runs in an automatic mode and depends on the individual to confirm satisfaction with the resulting audio file. By feeding this particular encoder with a mixture of music and test signals, the encoder detected overloads, technical errors, unusual noise in the recordings, and issued numerous warnings and error messages. The encoder knows when it is being driven outside of its performance envelope, and he disregarded the warnings. Ironically, the only accurate result from his flawed test is a confirmation that our tool behaved precisely as it was designed to when being used incorrectly."

MQA says the automatic encoder objected to 11 of the 14 files GoldenSound submitted, with the remaining three files receiving the following warnings in log returns:
  • Audio invalid ‐ Excessive alias
  • Audio invalid ‐ Input audio is predominantly 16 bits while file container is 24 bits Input audio appears to have been wrapped
  • Input audio contains a band edge
  • Encode may not have worked as desired and may require further QC
MQA says the automatic encoder GoldenSound used is designed to expect a range of peak spectral levels found in music across the spectrum of low to high frequencies. If those parameters aren't satisfied, then output will be tainted. The company says different classes of MQA encoders exist for various applications. "Extensive tools and facilities are available to mastering engineers and labels. Even more facilities to control the debarring and encapsulation processes are used for 'white-glove' projects."

After digesting MQA's plain speak response, I asked the company to explain how GoldenSound's use of test signals differs from techno or electronica (music that can sound like it has test signals). Bob Stuart replied with a five-page technical explanation, beginning with a dissection of GoldenSound's audio file and reiterating that MQA's automatic encoder is designed for music content. Stuart says GoldenSound's file (as posted on his download link) features test signals that were "interleaved" with music segments and "included to 'trick' the encoder into treating it as music." He continued by explaining the file's signal was out of gamut in several places, contained significant "washboard" distortion, and its segment's noise floors alternated between 24, 22, 12, and 6-bit levels.

Stuart says spectral levels of music (including techno, rock, pop, jazz, metal, and classical genres) mimic each other, with the bulk of energy appearing below 12kHz, quickly tapering off after that. In other words, lower frequencies are higher in level than high frequencies, and this holds true independent of genre.

Stuart also asserts that individual music recordings have a unique peak spectrum and noise floor, which can be identified and enclosed within a triangle on a diagram that plots decibels versus linear frequency. MQA uses these principles to identify musical information, encoding it with a very high level of precision. "The benefit of the MQA approach is we can use a novel sampling method with much lower temporal smearing that matches the actual signal character."

GoldenSound's tracks, according to Stuart, failed to approximate real-world music's spectral levels, nor did they have a consistent noise floor. The 44.1 kHz composite file contains "very high levels that, at 22 kHz, exceed music content by 30dB." The 88.2 kHz composite file is more problematic, exceeding musical content by 50dB at 44 kHz and 60dB in the ultrasonics. Stuart continued by saying the bulk of its power resides dangerously above 20 kHz. "Such extreme ultrasonic energy would readily damage tweeters or amplifiers," explained Stuart. "Professional mastering engineers are extremely careful to avoid any high-frequency whistle or interference above 20 kHz."

Long story short, Stuart maintains that GoldenSound's files contained unsafe ultrasonic signals that were identified and flagged with error messages. GoldenSound, he says, ignored these errors, which "simply does not happen in the normal professional supply chain where the MQA encoder analysis is monitored and highly valued [as an] forensic quality assurance check." The result essentially approximates a garbage-in/garbage-out scenario. Stuart says the files could have been encoded as MQA using a 'white glove' encoder.

Stuart's response, of course, includes quite a few complexities that are difficult to generalize. I'm told it will be released on his blog, Bob Talks, soon.

Taking MQA's explanation at face value, many of the issues revealed by GoldenSound result directly from content that failed to satisfy basic principles expected by MQA's automatic encoding technology. Assuming this is true, a scientific approach suggests that GoldenSound's tests need to be repeated with files that fit within MQA's encoding parameters.

Objectively speaking, MQA is currently a market option that consumers can circumvent by sourcing music from alternative services. This doesn't help enthusiasts who want to use TIDAL while avoiding MQA, nor does it satisfy detractors that fear MQA is actively inserting itself as an alternative form of digital rights management. The solution appears to be an open-source or standardized approach, which hardly seems viable given MQA's interest in protecting its proprietary technology. Of course, fans of MQA encoded tracks are free to continue enjoying their music – when it comes to audio, perceptual happiness is the ultimate judge.
 
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DanDan

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Whistleblowers are often subject to such attacks. But your absence of respect and insults directed at this guy are without actual substance. What part of his testing process do you have issue with? Many PR campaigns use industry experts in testimonials. Some of us even promote products without reward, e.g. Dirac Live. For balance it is worth considering the tranche of hardware manufacturers who have publicly gone against MQA, Lavry etc. I don't see a rationale for another thread, but if you do, by all means.
 
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That is very Agreeable, but it refers to pretty much everything, specifying nothing. It is clear that you like the product you have subscribed to, I am sure there is a term for that. But the discussion here is about a detailed series of tests which show that the Tidal claim of fidelity to source material is simply not true. Your hated Youtuber has proven this. No amount of saying I don't agree has any value unless you specify and invalidate some particular aspect of his testing.
 
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DanDan

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OK then, given your repeated failure to state exactly what it is you disagree with, I will ask you to stop posting disrespectful slurs devoid of debate content.
 

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My friends notice it too and for them it is a blind test and level matched, only I do the switching and they are clueless to this "audio stuff". With no prompting on my part the exact quote when I played the MQA track was "It sounds like I'm in the studio" FWIW.

As someone that does blinded testing, I find that very hard to believe. That would be a momentous event that should be documented and published.

I have sight-tested Qobuz vs. Tidal, thinking that I might prefer Qobuz slightly, but I would not put money on it blinded.
 

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I doubt I could reliably pick differences between Spotify, TIDAL, Qobuz, and Amazon. Yes, the Hi-Res services sound amazing... I really like them, but I wouldn't put $$ on being able to identify them in a blind fashion. I can hear the difference(poor quality) in XM radio, though.
 
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Mike-48

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There are two fundamental issues with blind testing MQA.(1) Do the recordings come from the same master, pre-MQA? I don't know that it's possible to know that. (2) It is preference testing, not accuracy testing to the master tape. Given that MQA has been shown not to be accurate to the master tape, in my opinion, it's not helpful to know that some prefer its particular style of DSP tone shaping. After all, some prefer mp3 to flac. That doesn't mean that mp3 is better in any objective way -- it's just that some prefer it, which is their right.

As to DSP, I would rather get the original PCM and do my own DSP as needed -- not have MQA decide how to do it for me, while simultaneously adding a tax and making it difficult or impossible to use my own DSP.
 
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my thoughts about blind testing in another thread to discuss MQA specifically
No need to reinvent the wheel, Bob Stuart himself coordinated with McGill U to do a peer reviewed, AES accepted real, factual blind test (vs say, imaginary, fabricated ones by the many anonymous MQA shills that appear on websites, like "Peter Veth", "Witchdoctor", et al).

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19396

AES E-LIBRARY
A Comparison of Clarity in MQA Encoded Files vs. Their Unprocessed State as Performed by Three Groups — Expert Listeners

This paper aims to examine perceived clarity in MQA encoded audio files compared to their unprocessed state (96-kHz 24-bit). Utilizing a methodology initially proposed by the authors in a previous paper, this study aims to investigate any reported differences in clarity for three musical sources of varying genres. A double-blind (listening) test is conducted using three groups—expert listeners, musicians, and casual listeners—in a controlled environment using high-quality loudspeakers and headphones. The researchers were interested in comparing the responses of the three target groups and whether playback systems had any significant effect on listeners’ perception. Data shows that listeners were not able to significantly discriminate between MQA encoded files and the unprocessed original due to several interaction effects.

The authors would like to thank.....Bob Stuart and Meridian for providing the MQA-encoded versions of our audio source materials


Yes, Bob probably never discusses this total bust/huge egg on his face during his Fireside Chats, but of course his targets there are the Blue Pavlov light crowd, not anyone remotely knowledgeable about audio science, et al
 

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I think it is great you have the time and expertise to do your own DSP.

Well, thanks. It is getting easier and easier to use DSP. It takes me far less time than keeping up with AVNirvana and posting here :cool: . Many of the NAD and miniDSP products come with Dirac, and there are many other forms of room correction (Anthem's ARC, Audessey, Audiolense, Acourate, ...) familiar to AVNirvana readers. Such DSP is steadily becoming easier to find and use, one of the positive developments in audio (IMO of course) in the last decade or so.

Unfortunately, MQA imperils our ability to use such methods, as it makes little sense to DSP a signal that is not PCM to begin with. That is my strongest objection to MQA, that it throws a money wrench into the works. In a bad analogy, it's as if all food came with plenty of ketchup on it, and we were disallowed from seasoning to taste. Perhaps even fans of MQA's particular flavor can see how that is a significant drawback.
 

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An interesting feature just turned up in the new Audirvana Studio release... A HD Song Profile Checker to assess presumed high-resolution quality files... It appears that an end user/consumer will now have a simple to use tool to assess the presumed quality of their audio source...

Curiouser and curiouser...

A free 30 day trial of Audirvana Studio is available at their website... I have nothing to do with the company other than being a happy user of their Audirvana software for the past few years... If I have somehow violated AV NIRVANA rules, I apologize and mods please remove this last paragraph from my post... This is not meant to be an advertisement for Audirvana... Just pointing out an interesting feature regarding high rez music and possible quality issues...
 
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Not sure how you guys feel... I'm thinking: "Next Topic!"
 

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Not sure how you guys feel... I'm thinking: "Next Topic!"
Lol... The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets... Not to be confused with a dead cat bounce... :cool:

In my humble opinion, MQAs defense is a big fat Nothing Burger... I am still waiting for some form of legal action by one side or the other... Either way, Discovery could be very interesting...
 
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mechtheist

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"Those old analog masters don't have signals that require hi-rez formats to reproduce, the majority of them are already multiple generations of analog recording and that ain't helping the end product".

What "old analog masters" are you referring to? The ones made in the fifties and sixties? The eighties and nineties? The ones made in the last twenty years? What is "the majority"? 51% of them? 61%? 99%? Are you just making this up as you type? Do you realize that they just don't do a data dump when it comes to restoring an original master tape?
A little late, I apologize, I assumed I'd get notified of a reply but that didn't happen.
I'm assuming Botnick was referring to the recordings he was involved with, so back to the 70's for sure, but generally, masters derived from analog multitracks--analog all the way. As to the percentages, I have no idea, what percentage of recordings are done 2 channel without mixing down from multitrack?
You might check out Mark Waldrep's:
about 36 minutes in he discusses analog tape recordings in the mastering process.

The tech in your link is interesting but doesn't provide any evidence that Red Book standard CD produced from those masters wouldn't be transparent to those masters. I've thought for many years at some point, they'll be able to take even the oldest recordings and do a simulation of the actual physics of everything involved in a recording so they could recreate it at whatever accuracy, to the actual performance, desired. I mean simulate actual individual instruments, the dynamics of fingers plucking strings, the vocal tracts of individuals singing etc. It would likely require a substantial number of recordings to work with to get the huge amount of info needed and also likely really advanced AI and massive compute power. If they ever manage to do something like that, I'd still bet normal human hearing would allow a CD to reproduce the resulting simulations transparently.
 

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The first CD Players and the F1 Recorder were 14 Bit. Afaik this was similar to the BBC Broadcast Distro PCM network, although that was probably 14 Bit 32Khz. 14 was chosen by BBC Sony Philips as capable of a wider dynamic range than any previously available recording medium. 84dB. Quite quickly CD duplication stabilised so the two extra error correcting bits became available for 16 Bit, 96dB SNR Audio. It is mystifying as to why Downloads in particular were not always 16/44. Similarly that resolution would be a doddle for almost all Streaming now, but no we are skipping to vastly bigger unnecessary numbers. And all sorts of herbs and spices..... Spatial Audio, Dolby Atmos........ Submersive......
 
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mechtheist

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Thanks for the reply, I'll have to watch the video, thanks for posting. After the tapes had gone through the Plangent process the resulting masters were reissued on vinyl, a 3 CD set, and the MQA release on Tidal.
According to Bruce:
“What we’re doing here is transferring the analog tape at the highest resolution possible,” Botnick continued, “and then sending my analog-to-digital transfers to a company called Plangent. They are able to resolve the speed of the analog two-track. By doing that, you hear the exact speed of the eight-track masters that we had, and we are able to also put all the songs in tune at 440. It’s really interesting because when I took these files and I put them up against the original album, in the speed, you can hear the drift, how it goes in and out of phase. So now with the Plangent process, we’re able to actually resolve the speed of the machine and correct for this. It’s a big deal.”

Thanks, I hope you watch the video, it's really interesting and informative if you're not really up on a lot of that.

As I said, the Plangent tech is really interesting and could provide for a substantial improvement for many if not most older masters. But none of that involves MQA, it's the implication that only with MQA can you hear the improvements that's problematic. I think that's what he's implying, here and in other quotes. What's needed is to take a Plangent processed piece and then compare that with an MQA conversion vs non-MQA conversion. There's nothing to lead me to think even with Plangent that Red Book would fail to be transparent.

It seems too me that MQA admits to tweaking the sound, that it's not just doing the digital conversions. If that's actually the case, this whole thread, the whole controversy, is utterly worthless. As long as they insist on being so opaque about their process, it really isn't worthwhile talking about it.
 
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DanDan

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Both of these 'Solutions' might be useful if there were actual problems to begin with. If DAC designs are not good enough to deal with pre ringing perhaps the MQA Deblurring might help. Seems kind of unlikely that all those competing designers for decades have not fully addressed that issue. The Plangent process appears to read the frequency of the bias printed on the Master, varispeeding the playback machine to mimic the speed variation in the original Master Recorder. This of course assumes that the original Mastering Machine, a result of many many decades of development, a technology at it's Apex, had the wobbles. No harm in it I guess.
 

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Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna, Lumin iApp, Samsung & Yamaha
Streaming Equipment
Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
I have a DAC designed by Rob Watts... Do you think I have a problem with PreRinging? Nope... But then Rob thinks that MQA and DSD are breaking small signals too... Watts the heck does he know??? :cool:

By the way... Hows that Coca Cola on your pancreas??? o_O
 
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AJ Soundfield

Active Member
Joined
May 21, 2017
Messages
394
Location
Tampa
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha RXA800, Denon AVR-X4500, Lexicon MC10
Main Amp
Hypex Ncores
Additional Amp
Abacus Ampino, Triode Corp TRV-35SE
Computer Audio
AudioEngine D2
DAC
NAD M51
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Yamaha BDA1010
Front Speakers
Soundfields
Center Channel Speaker
Soundfields, KEF Q150
Surround Speakers
Soundfields
Surround Back Speakers
Revel M16
Subwoofers
Soundfield Cardioid Rythmik Servo
Other Speakers or Equipment
AVA ABX
If DAC designs are not good enough to deal with pre ringing perhaps the MQA Deblurring might help.
No, There is zero evidence of "pre-ringing" with music signals as captured by a zillion ADCs used to encode since the 80s, especially since >44.1k sampling has been encoded for 30 years. Again, Zero evidence of real ADCs, real music signals (the very thing the scammers are moaning about with this caught with pants down testing!).
All the "pre-ringing" exists only in the empty craniums of the blue Pavlov light crowd, the most technically illiterate/susceptible to marketing nonsense like "pre-ringing" folks.
 
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