miniDSP UMIK-1 or UMIK-2

[2234rew]

Hi @Mitchco

A long time ago when UMIK-2 was initially released someone wrote that UMIK-1 is better for room correction due to smaller capsule (even though it has higher self noise level).

Is that correct?

And in 2023 what is your recommendation between these 2?

 

[Mitchco]

Hi @2234rew

As long as the mic calibration file closely matches the response of the mic, either mic will work just fine for DRC.

Kind regards,
Mitch

 

[2234rew]

Hi @2234rew

As long as the mic calibration file closely matches the response of the mic, either mic will work just fine for DRC.

Kind regards,
Mitch

Thanks Mitch. Have you used the newer UMIK-2 yourself and had good results?

 

[jrobbins50]

I have both. As Mitch knows from working with me, the UMIK-1 seems to work better with the Okto dac8pro than the UMIK-2. In the end, I’ve achieved excellent results with both. JCR

 

[whoareyou]

I also have a UMik-1 and I like the results, but you might want to take a look at cross spectrum labs for purchase. Might take a bit longer to receive, but the microphone is individually calibrated. My individually calbrated Umik-1 had some big differences with the more generic calibration received from miniDSP (I've seen other people say the differences were negligible).

For only a few dollars more you'll be certain the calibration is accurate.

 

[Mitchco]

Hi @2234rew, while I have a UMIK-1, many of my customers have UMIK-2, and as mentioned above, the most important aspect is a good calibration file.

This is illustrated in this thread where AustinJerry was getting different results from his UMIK-1 versus his new UMIK-2. It turned out to be a bad batch of cal files and with the new cal file, the response between the two UMIK versions are virtually identical: https://www.minidsp.com/forum/umik-questions/18099-umik-2-measuring-different-from-umik-1?start=0

There is another USB mic where I have seen horrible mic cal files like this person: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-world-performance-review.33918/#post-1185218

Like McFly says from the link, "I suspect the issue is more the factory calibration files, not so much the mic."

Having said that, what is really missing from most of these specs is proper polar response measurements of the mic. These are supposed to be "omnidirectional" mics, but the reality is that as frequency increases the polar pattern "can" narrow, with the narrowest at the top end of the frequency range (i.e. 20 kHz.) Technically, the larger the mic capsule, the narrower the omnidirectional pattern. But we will never know with the UMIK mics as far as I know, that data is not measured or published.

Here is a proper spec'd calibrated measurement microphone, complete with polar response charts, distortion measurements, etc.:

https://my.isemcon.com/allACCESSdocuments/EMX-7150/iSEMcon-EMX-Broschure74x212_r03.pdf

 

[mccarty350]

Just as a caution I would recommend not using any type of USB mic with Audiolense that is separate from your playback device. As an example, I was having 50% success rate taking individual measurements with a USB umic and a usb sound card (8 channel). Clock drift correction was required because it was two devices and the software just crashed - a lot. As soon as I switched to using an analog calibrated mic (I am using the dayton EMM-1 currently) I was able to achieve a near 100% success rate without crashing and didn't have to deal with any type of clock synch issues. If you look at some of the other conversations in the forum this is echoed.

 

[Mitchco]

@mccarty350 I agree 100%. Unfortunately, for many, there is no easy way to use an analog mic in their setup... The majority of consumer DAC's don't have a corresponding ADC (and mic preamp). Adding an external ADC with mic preamp is back to the 2 clock scenario. If 2 channel only, then one can purchase a separate AD/DA converter with mic preamp like a Scarlett 2i2 or Steinberg UR12 for a couple hundred bucks. And reliably take 2 channel measurements.

As you and others have found out, the real challenge is multichannel. Many folks have purchased DAC's like Okto dac8Pro or exaSound and other high performance multichannel DAC's that don't come with an ADC/mic preamp So no easy solution... Even some of the Pro converters only have an ADC, like the Lynx Hilo I use, so an external mic preamp is required. No big deal, except the majority of mic preamps made today are for music production and finding a "real" mic measurement preamp (like the old trusty Rane MS1) is almost impossible. For example, Earthworks made incredible measurement mic preamps (not cheap) like the Earthworks 1022 2 channel ZDT preamp. But no more. I contacted them to find out what mic preamps they recommended with their measurement mics and they answered Grace and Millenia. I have not looked into those brands as of yet.

So unless one is using a multichannel Pro DAC with a built in mic preamp, or a sound card like yours, there are many cases where using a USB mic is pretty much the only way to make it work. And that a typical USB mic costs $100 or less, is another reason why they are so popular, aside from simple plug n play.

 

[whoareyou]

@mccarty350 I agree 100%. Unfortunately, for many, there is no easy way to use an analog mic in their setup... The majority of consumer DAC's don't have a corresponding ADC (and mic preamp). Adding an external ADC with mic preamp is back to the 2 clock scenario. If 2 channel only, then one can purchase a separate AD/DA converter with mic preamp like a Scarlett 2i2 or Steinberg UR12 for a couple hundred bucks. And reliably take 2 channel measurements.

As you and others have found out, the real challenge is multichannel. Many folks have purchased DAC's like Okto dac8Pro or exaSound and other high performance multichannel DAC's that don't come with an ADC/mic preamp So no easy solution... Even some of the Pro converters only have an ADC, like the Lynx Hilo I use, so an external mic preamp is required. No big deal, except the majority of mic preamps made today are for music production and finding a "real" mic measurement preamp (like the old trusty Rane MS1) is almost impossible. For example, Earthworks made incredible measurement mic preamps (not cheap) like the Earthworks 1022 2 channel ZDT preamp. But no more. I contacted them to find out what mic preamps they recommended with their measurement mics and they answered Grace and Millenia. I have not looked into those brands as of yet.

So unless one is using a multichannel Pro DAC with a built in mic preamp, or a sound card like yours, there are many cases where using a USB mic is pretty much the only way to make it work. And that a typical USB mic costs $100 or less, is another reason why they are so popular, aside from simple plug n play.

So, what about something like the motu ultralite mk5?

And just to expand a bit on the measurements and issues people experience. Luckily I don't have to take measurements (multichannel configuration, usb, exasound) very often, so for me it's really not a problem. It outright fails once in a while, or I'll get some strange popping or other failures, but I know how to work around the issues. Like I said, not big deal for me.

But with Dirac and same hardware, when I take measurements I've never had issues like I encounter with AL. The complete measurement chain is a bit different from software perspective because it also involvs JRiver, but that's one extra component, and it always seems to work correctly. Maybe I'm just lucky, and others also experience issues with this type of setup, but it just makes me wonder if there is room for improvement with AL's measurement module.

 

[mccarty350]

@mccarty350 I agree 100%. Unfortunately, for many, there is no easy way to use an analog mic in their setup... The majority of consumer DAC's don't have a corresponding ADC (and mic preamp). Adding an external ADC with mic preamp is back to the 2 clock scenario. If 2 channel only, then one can purchase a separate AD/DA converter with mic preamp like a Scarlett 2i2 or Steinberg UR12 for a couple hundred bucks. And reliably take 2 channel measurements.

I'm using an Asus Xonar sound card that has a mic in. I had to use a 20-some dollar phantom power supply that is inline but other than that that's about it. Indeed, I'm running 8 channels so it's been...challenging.

As you and others have found out, the real challenge is multichannel. Many folks have purchased DAC's like Okto dac8Pro or exaSound and other high performance multichannel DAC's that don't come with an ADC/mic preamp So no easy solution... Even some of the Pro converters only have an ADC, like the Lynx Hilo I use, so an external mic preamp is required. No big deal, except the majority of mic preamps made today are for music production and finding a "real" mic measurement preamp (like the old trusty Rane MS1) is almost impossible. For example, Earthworks made incredible measurement mic preamps (not cheap) like the Earthworks 1022 2 channel ZDT preamp. But no more. I contacted them to find out what mic preamps they recommended with their measurement mics and they answered Grace and Millenia. I have not looked into those brands as of yet.

So unless one is using a multichannel Pro DAC with a built in mic preamp, or a sound card like yours, there are many cases where using a USB mic is pretty much the only way to make it work. And that a typical USB mic costs $100 or less, is another reason why they are so popular, aside from simple plug n play.

I get it. It was an utter disaster for me, I was failing so much of the time. I was coming from a simple plug and play umik but the stability issues just murdered me.

 

[2234rew]

So, what about something like the motu ultralite mk5?

Yes obviously a good choice

Has both mic pre input and D to A outputs

Use it for both measurements and for playback - happy days

I have 10 channel Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 - also happy days

 

[whoareyou]

Yes obviously a good choice

Has both mic pre input and D to A outputs

Use it for both measurements and for playback - happy days

I have 10 channel Focusrite 18i20 Gen 3 - also happy days

Hah, I was replying just as you posted. I keep looking at these types of solutions, and get very tempted, but I have hard time justifying a purchase that would only be used for AL measurement and otherwise sit idle.

And so, I seem to put up with the difficulties I encounter with the umik-1.

One other issue I have with the umik is it seems to have a high noise floor. I am always near that 60DB level mentioned by Bernt in some other post.
Measurements seem good enough, but it's always in the back of my mind that something "might" be off.

 

[2234rew]

Measurements seem good enough, but it's always in the back of my mind that something "might" be off.

Yes I didn't realise time of flight issues (driver delays) were off in measurements until I stopped using the 2 clocks method and ditched ASIO4ALL - good riddance !

What is your complete playback chain - you can't use something like Focusrite or Motu in playback? Not only measurements

There is now 4th Gen Focusrite, so expect clearance sales on the still excellent 3rd gen

 

[whoareyou]

Yes I didn't realise time of flight issues (driver delays) were off in measurements until I stopped using the 2 clocks method and ditched ASIO4ALL - good riddance !

What is your complete playback chain - you can't use something like Focusrite or Motu in playback? Not only measurements

There is now 4th Gen Focusrite, so expect clearance sales on the still excellent 3rd gen

I have a couple of multichannel DACs. Exasound e38 and a Topping DM7, so I already have 1 more DAC than I need, and looking at my closet of unused stuff, my history of selling my older stuff is very poor. I'm really trying not to buy another DAC

I have passive 7.2 Edit:5.2 system.

The topping I have connected directly to my amps, and the Exasound goes through a Parasound P7 preamp. I switch between them to my amps via a coleman audio 8 channel balanced switch.

How do the outputs on that focusrite function. I see 8 balanced TRS? that seem to be labeled both input and output. So are those configuratble to be either?

 

[2234rew]

How do the outputs on that focusrite function. I see 8 balanced TRS? that seem to be labeled both input and output. So are those configuratble to be either?

No they are separate balanced input and output.

Check out the user manual - those outputs can be used in both TRS balanced and TS unbalanced mode which is nice

I'm really trying not to buy another DAC

It is really important to get the best out of Audiolense's true time domain correction, otherwise it is almost useless in my experience (seeing different delays)

With separate clocks for DAC and ADC, you don't really know if your time domain corrections are anywhere close to accurate

And they can vary each time you reboot the system and re-measure

 

[whoareyou]

It is really important to get the best out of Audiolense's true time domain correction, otherwise it is almost useless in my experience (seeing different delays)

With separate clocks for DAC and ADC, you don't really know if your time domain corrections are anywhere close to accurate

And they can vary each time you reboot the system and re-measure

Thanks for reply, and yeah I did refer to the manual. It was very helpful.

I'm just not that sure I'm getting bad results on the timings. I can take several measurements in a row, and I get basically the same delays for each measurement.

Having said that, today I took new measurements with longer duration, went from 5 sec to 10 sec, as I wanted to see if noise floor would show improvement. With the longer duration, my timings changed away from the numbers I usually see i.e. LF went from 4.19 -> 5.02. So, not sure what's going on with that, but I've never seen anything like that before. Mostly, my timings have been in same ballpark, and when something has gone wrong it is very obvious, and this seemed like a "good" reading, but yet different enough that I noticed it.

The $1000 question is, do I want to spend the money on the measurement upgrade, and even if I find timings were off, would the discrepancy be enough for my ears to notice a difference with the improved filter.

It might not even make as much difference for me as my system is passive. I think active systems are completely different beasts.

 

[2234rew]

The $1000 question is, do I want to spend the money on the measurement upgrade, and even if I find timings were off, would the discrepancy be enough for my ears to notice a difference with the improved filter.

Impossible for anyone to know how far the measured delays are off.

It is so random, I can not even predict in my setup, let alone somebody elses - only way I knew was when I measured with proper interface

I think Gen3 Focusrite 18i20 is around USD600 - maybe on sale with Gen4 coming now

Look out of used units too.

Even if you don't use it for normal playback it would at least help make better corrections to use with your other multichannel playback DACs

 

[Ofer]

A few folks in this forum use the Motu ultralight mk5 for measurements and as their main DAC. It has 10 outputs and the prices are starting to drop. They are ~650$ on eBay but you can find for less.

motu ultralite mk5 for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for motu ultralite mk5 at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

www.ebay.com

 

[whoareyou]

A few folks in this forum use the Motu ultralight mk5 for measurements and as their main DAC. It has 10 outputs and the prices are starting to drop. They are ~650$ on eBay but you can find for less.

motu ultralite mk5 for sale | eBay

Get the best deals for motu ultralite mk5 at eBay.com. We have a great online selection at the lowest prices with Fast & Free shipping on many items!

www.ebay.com

I actually ended up picking one up along with ISEMcon mic. @2234rew helped to convince me to move away from the USB mic (Thanks!)
Measurements with this setup are consistent and reproducable time after time.

So far so good.

Thanks everyone for the advice!

 

[2234rew]

Very nice purchases. you can delete ASIO4ALL forever, good riddance

 

[whoareyou]

Very nice purchases. you can delete ASIO4ALL forever, good riddance

In my case, I never used ASIO4ALL as my DACs ASIO driver in combination with UMIK-1's drivers "worked".
But after listening to new filters, it's obvious the new filters are different in a very good way, and I suspect it's because the timings are more accurate leading to better filters produced by AL.
Garbage in and garbage out seems to somewhat apply here.

 

[2234rew]

Interesting so you had Audiolense input = WASAPI driver (UMIK-1) and output = ASIO (DAC)

But yeh 2 clocks is sub-optimal.

Better listening days ahead !

 

[Ofer]

In my case, I never used ASIO4ALL as my DACs ASIO driver in combination with UMIK-1's drivers "worked".
But after listening to new filters, it's obvious the new filters are different in a very good way, and I suspect it's because the timings are more accurate leading to better filters produced by AL.
Garbage in and garbage out seems to somewhat apply here.

In that respect, not putting down the UMIK, it seems you aquired a very high quality measurement mic. Is the Motu used only for measurements or is it now the main DAC too?

 

[Mitchco]

So, what about something like the motu ultralite mk5?

Sorry, I missed that, but as you have found out from @2234rew it is a high quality MCH converter. And now you are getting consistent and repeatable measurements with the timing intact. It does make an audible difference. (PS. I own an mk5 as well).

 

[whoareyou]

In that respect, not putting down the UMIK, it seems you aquired a very high quality measurement mic. Is the Motu used only for measurements or is it now the main DAC too?

It will get a good deal of use, but can't quite do everything I would like for playback.

My main DAC is an Exasound 38 that plays multichannel at 352.8, which MOTU cannot do. I like to use that sample rate with my SACD collection with the filters. Not sure it sounds better, but I just like the idea of it

Also, I still need to test the MK5 with playlists containing mixed sample rates, and make certain it switches properly between all rates. I've seen reviews on ASR where people have complained about slow switching.

The one DAC it will probably replace is a Topping DM7, which sounds great, but I really don't need it any longer. I wish I had purchased the MOTU instead of the Topping because of the measurement capability the MK5 provides.