Originally Posted by
Phillihp23
@
MagnumX What is this Mixer matrix for front wides entail? Equipment etc. and how does it connect into the main AVR x8500h?
It's very very simple. You output the same channels you would with a Dolby Processor, but you only need a small active mixer box (here's the one i used:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1) so it takes up very little space. The mixer "adds" the channels together. Thus, in-phase material (aka "correlated") gains +3dB and out of phase material cancels out depending on just how out-of-phase it is. You are left with a speaker "output" from the box that isn't very discrete (only +3dB at most) above the main channels (thus you will have an "array effect" since the original channels will play too, not just the newly created one) and even the new channel has the main channels in them as well (3dB below the center point).
Assuming your speakers timbre match well, what you have left is an array effect which means that the "phantom image" will be directly between the two sets of speakers (i.e. right at the new speaker if you are seating equidistant from the mains, the same as a phantom image would if something imaged there normally, except now you have a hard source there that works better for off-center seating and technically would bridge long angles as well if the room was large enough to "need" speaker in-between). You gain very little for the MLP in most rooms (although I find it does improve "stereo" mode quite a bit in that it reduces side wall reflections for front wides and gives an extra sound arrival that gives more "depth" like a bipolar or dipolar speaker does when used in the front instead of the sides).
Add to that a similar effect with height and you've improved your room further in stereo mode and the soundstage is even larger sounding in terms of depth and some height (depending on the amount of "lift"). Thus, I have 6-channel stereo mode that sounds more like my Carver Ribbon dipolar speakers do upstairs (they have a tall but narrow 48" tall and 2" wide driver that limits floor and ceiling reflections and gives an extra rear arrival that makes stereo imaging seem more "real" in the room to my ears). This little 4 to 6-channel "stereo" mode does the same thing with multiple speakers except that it also reduces side wall reflections a little bit while creating their own extra arrival. Trust me. It sounds BETTER than 2-channel stereo. I ran Audyssey with this mode ON so it corrected the matrixed array effect instead of a single speaker (no different than running Audyssey on ONE speaker with multiple D'appolito drivers really, IMO)
Summary:
Using Pro Logic processing to extract a center channel gives "near discrete" output (although that can be modified with the distance parameter to create a little or a lot of an array effect). This is what you want if you want to simulate something as close as possible to higher channel Atmos mixes.
An active mixer (well technically a passive mixer too, but they don't put out enough output level, IMO) gives a "Matrixed" effect in that channels are added together for a mere +3dB separation in sound (like the old matrix surround decoders except we're only interested in the center output) so you get a stereo array effect, but with hard speaker locations that will still image better for off-axis seating. This also gives some flexibility to where the surround speakers actually sound like they're coming from. For example, I have front wides in front of my front row of seats, side surrounds behind it and surround
#1 behind the second row of seats with the rears behind th last row of seats. Adjusting the amount of the mix together of the two sets of channels (front + side for Front Wide and side + rear for Surround
#1 ) lets me have the phantom image of the "side" speakers along side the seats even though the actual speakers are in front of or behind them. This maximizes the amount of room I have for chairs as they can now sit closer to the walls without having a speaker right in your ear!
Addendum
You could also technically create discrete outputs (or use one of the newer processors that do it anyway) and use active mixers to add "arrayed" side surrounds to all the side speakers like the actual cinemas do! (i.e. front wide would have discrete rendered front wide material PLUS arrayed side surround and surround
#1 would have it discrete for objects passing through, but also play the side surround channel for the wider side effects). This would be ideal and behave exactly like the cinema does for multiple rows of seats! Objects would be discrete but "channels" would be arrayed.
Regarding Front Wide Use in Soundtracks
Now what about Front Wide content in actual Atmos soundtracks and DTS:X? It's hard to verify given the existing equipment, but I can tell you this much. Front wides are located between the mains and the first set of side surrounds. Whether an Atmos track has front wides engaged or not, anything panning between the mains and the side SHOULD be played back through the front wides. This is where Atmos gets a bit messed up because that's the way it's supposed to work! An object should be rendered as panning relative to the nearest speakers in use as the object passes by or appears there, etc. If "many" or "most" Atmos soundtracks are not using the front wide speakers, there's something wrong. Either the film mixing guy isn't panning objects between those speakers are front wides are effectively turned off for the mix! That should not even be allowed, IMO, but Dolby DOES allow it and that's why you get crappy soundtracks like those from Disney where only 7.1.4 layout speakers work at all!
Now DTS:X Pro will do the same thing as above with extraction, but internally to the decoder itself. Thus, even if every single DTS:X soundtrack out there is 7.1.4 "channels" it doesn't matter! It will create up to 30.2 channels from those channels the same way by extracting hard "near discrete" channels between the existing channels! Now why apparently the 8500 does not use Neural X for front wides is beyond me. I'm pretty sure my 7010 (currently not in use sitting in the back room) did extract front wides with DTS:X, but short of swapping out the receivers just for that (and a LOT of wiring since I'm set up for 11.1.6), I can't be certain. It SHOULD do it as that's what Neural X is for as long as enough channels are available.
The problem with using 5.1.4 + FW with DTS:X is that it's going to copy the sides to the front wides location (for whatever reason), but oddly that's exactly what you would get in a real cinema typically as all those extra Atmos speakers on the sides are typically discrete for moving objects, but set up as arrays for the "side surround" channel. Thus, "side surround" events play through them all, but only objects play approaching one at a time through each speaker as it pans through them. But this may do something unexpected in your room by moving the "side surround" image forward from where you may want it in your layout (e.g. if you have the side surround directly to your sides, it will now seem to come from between the front wides and your sides, which may be undesirable as it's similar to putting your side surrounds in front of you instead of to the side or somewhat behind you).
Conclusion:
Thus, I can only conclude given the horrible limitations of certain Atmos soundtracks and the as of yet fixed 11-channel DTS:X limit that at this juncture in time, it may actually be BETTER to use extracted and/or matrixed extra channels beyond 7.1.4 as they will work with EVERYTHING as the system doesn't know they're even there.