Help I don’t get it- using a mixer to create a channel

phillihp23

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I don’t understand the cabling process....what connects to what and where.
I have a Denon x8500h AVR
An Emotiva XPA-5 and want to use a mixer to create front wides from front mains and side surrounds.
a pencil drawing of how and what connects where would be great. I’d even take crayola illustrations. I have attacked a picture of the back of the AVR and the mixer, the amp is self explanatory.
DE983F74-C8CA-4B5F-A92C-47DAB192FBE5.jpeg
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Sonnie

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Hmmm... never heard of doing this. I don't see how it can work, but since I've never heard of it, certainly can't say it won't work. Did it not come with a manual?
 

phillihp23

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This is one of the ways people are creating additional channels such as front wides which DTSX currently has an issue with if you have height channels in your system. The hope is that DTSX Pro will resolve those eventually. Essentially you run front left and front side surround in and it creates the front wide on the out.
I just don’t understand we’re in the chain it goes and what connects where on the AVR and my amp. Someone was explaining it but I’m too stupid. Need a hookup diagram to understand. I haven’t purchased the mixer yet.
 

Sonnie

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I suppose if you are not using the preamp outputs, you would connect those the the two channels you need into two of the inputs, then maybe balance the input somehow with the adjustment knobs... with the output going to a separate amp.
 

phillihp23

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So if I am pre-out front right and pre-out right surround then that means I can’t use the Amp on the AVR for these channels, and would have to use a separate amp right? If that’s true I would need a separate amp for 6 channels. Front L/R. Front wides L/R and surround L/R. Also if I run two channels in the mixer and 1 new channel comes out...how do I get the two original channels going in to output on there own again?
This feels like a riddle LoL
 
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Sonnie

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I don't think Atmos uses front wides anyway... only front, center, side, surround and up to 4 height channels + sub(s). But yeah... if you have something connected to the speaker outputs, I think it will still send a signal to both... otherwise this doohickey would never be any good for you... you couldn't use it and still have mains and surrounds.
 

phillihp23

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Correct atmos doesn’t use front wides and DTSX only does 7.4 and not front wides if heights connected. And if you change the speaker floor, amp assign, and rerun audyssey it will only do 11.1 and not heights. So you extract by PL1 or Matrix to run front wides with both atmos 7.1.6 and DTSX 7.1.4 Or you continue to wait and hope they release DTSX Pro and it fixes the issue.
 

phillihp23

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They do the same thing with Top Middle speakers as a majority of source material does not use it. Most only does 7.1.4 regardless if you have a 7.1.6 setup. I’m sure you understand, I have all these speakers and they should be providing sounds to please my ears LoL!
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Essentially you run front left and front side surround in and it creates the front wide on the out.

I just don’t understand we’re in the chain it goes and what connects where on the AVR and my amp.

Someone was explaining it but I’m too stupid.

Based on your description, you would send the main pre outputs for the front left and front side surround channels to two of the Rolls inputs. As Sonnie noted, the Rolls output would then have to go to a separate outboard amplifier.

Maybe you could post a link to the discussion you referred to?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 

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Im sorry but I am really confused as to what your trying to achieve here, I understand you want to get some extra wide channels going but I do not see how running the pre outs into that mixer above than then back in to the receiver can get you there. If you were to use the CD input on the receiver you would loose all of your digital sound processing as it s an analog signal by that point.
As Wayne asked can you send us the link to the above mentioned "additional channels" workaround that you want?
 

phillihp23

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Originally Posted by Phillihp23
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@MagnumX What is this Mixer matrix for front wides entail? Equipment etc. and how does it connect into the main AVR x8500h?
It's very very simple. You output the same channels you would with a Dolby Processor, but you only need a small active mixer box (here's the one i used: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1) so it takes up very little space. The mixer "adds" the channels together. Thus, in-phase material (aka "correlated") gains +3dB and out of phase material cancels out depending on just how out-of-phase it is. You are left with a speaker "output" from the box that isn't very discrete (only +3dB at most) above the main channels (thus you will have an "array effect" since the original channels will play too, not just the newly created one) and even the new channel has the main channels in them as well (3dB below the center point).

Assuming your speakers timbre match well, what you have left is an array effect which means that the "phantom image" will be directly between the two sets of speakers (i.e. right at the new speaker if you are seating equidistant from the mains, the same as a phantom image would if something imaged there normally, except now you have a hard source there that works better for off-center seating and technically would bridge long angles as well if the room was large enough to "need" speaker in-between). You gain very little for the MLP in most rooms (although I find it does improve "stereo" mode quite a bit in that it reduces side wall reflections for front wides and gives an extra sound arrival that gives more "depth" like a bipolar or dipolar speaker does when used in the front instead of the sides).

Add to that a similar effect with height and you've improved your room further in stereo mode and the soundstage is even larger sounding in terms of depth and some height (depending on the amount of "lift"). Thus, I have 6-channel stereo mode that sounds more like my Carver Ribbon dipolar speakers do upstairs (they have a tall but narrow 48" tall and 2" wide driver that limits floor and ceiling reflections and gives an extra rear arrival that makes stereo imaging seem more "real" in the room to my ears). This little 4 to 6-channel "stereo" mode does the same thing with multiple speakers except that it also reduces side wall reflections a little bit while creating their own extra arrival. Trust me. It sounds BETTER than 2-channel stereo. I ran Audyssey with this mode ON so it corrected the matrixed array effect instead of a single speaker (no different than running Audyssey on ONE speaker with multiple D'appolito drivers really, IMO)

Summary:

Using Pro Logic processing to extract a center channel gives "near discrete" output (although that can be modified with the distance parameter to create a little or a lot of an array effect). This is what you want if you want to simulate something as close as possible to higher channel Atmos mixes.

An active mixer (well technically a passive mixer too, but they don't put out enough output level, IMO) gives a "Matrixed" effect in that channels are added together for a mere +3dB separation in sound (like the old matrix surround decoders except we're only interested in the center output) so you get a stereo array effect, but with hard speaker locations that will still image better for off-axis seating. This also gives some flexibility to where the surround speakers actually sound like they're coming from. For example, I have front wides in front of my front row of seats, side surrounds behind it and surround #1 behind the second row of seats with the rears behind th last row of seats. Adjusting the amount of the mix together of the two sets of channels (front + side for Front Wide and side + rear for Surround #1 ) lets me have the phantom image of the "side" speakers along side the seats even though the actual speakers are in front of or behind them. This maximizes the amount of room I have for chairs as they can now sit closer to the walls without having a speaker right in your ear!

Addendum

You could also technically create discrete outputs (or use one of the newer processors that do it anyway) and use active mixers to add "arrayed" side surrounds to all the side speakers like the actual cinemas do! (i.e. front wide would have discrete rendered front wide material PLUS arrayed side surround and surround #1 would have it discrete for objects passing through, but also play the side surround channel for the wider side effects). This would be ideal and behave exactly like the cinema does for multiple rows of seats! Objects would be discrete but "channels" would be arrayed.

Regarding Front Wide Use in Soundtracks

Now what about Front Wide content in actual Atmos soundtracks and DTS:X? It's hard to verify given the existing equipment, but I can tell you this much. Front wides are located between the mains and the first set of side surrounds. Whether an Atmos track has front wides engaged or not, anything panning between the mains and the side SHOULD be played back through the front wides. This is where Atmos gets a bit messed up because that's the way it's supposed to work! An object should be rendered as panning relative to the nearest speakers in use as the object passes by or appears there, etc. If "many" or "most" Atmos soundtracks are not using the front wide speakers, there's something wrong. Either the film mixing guy isn't panning objects between those speakers are front wides are effectively turned off for the mix! That should not even be allowed, IMO, but Dolby DOES allow it and that's why you get crappy soundtracks like those from Disney where only 7.1.4 layout speakers work at all!

Now DTS:X Pro will do the same thing as above with extraction, but internally to the decoder itself. Thus, even if every single DTS:X soundtrack out there is 7.1.4 "channels" it doesn't matter! It will create up to 30.2 channels from those channels the same way by extracting hard "near discrete" channels between the existing channels! Now why apparently the 8500 does not use Neural X for front wides is beyond me. I'm pretty sure my 7010 (currently not in use sitting in the back room) did extract front wides with DTS:X, but short of swapping out the receivers just for that (and a LOT of wiring since I'm set up for 11.1.6), I can't be certain. It SHOULD do it as that's what Neural X is for as long as enough channels are available.

The problem with using 5.1.4 + FW with DTS:X is that it's going to copy the sides to the front wides location (for whatever reason), but oddly that's exactly what you would get in a real cinema typically as all those extra Atmos speakers on the sides are typically discrete for moving objects, but set up as arrays for the "side surround" channel. Thus, "side surround" events play through them all, but only objects play approaching one at a time through each speaker as it pans through them. But this may do something unexpected in your room by moving the "side surround" image forward from where you may want it in your layout (e.g. if you have the side surround directly to your sides, it will now seem to come from between the front wides and your sides, which may be undesirable as it's similar to putting your side surrounds in front of you instead of to the side or somewhat behind you).

Conclusion:

Thus, I can only conclude given the horrible limitations of certain Atmos soundtracks and the as of yet fixed 11-channel DTS:X limit that at this juncture in time, it may actually be BETTER to use extracted and/or matrixed extra channels beyond 7.1.4 as they will work with EVERYTHING as the system doesn't know they're even there.
 

phillihp23

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If you were to go the pro logic route to do the same thing.
Originally Posted by Phillihp23
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It would be great to decode my front wides but I found it complex and some appeared to have issues, I read through some of the thread on here about it. It just seems complex and also requires a bit of additional equipment.
It's not complex, but can be a bit messy as you need two Dolby Pro Logic 1 or Pro Logic II sound processors (or AVRs) and you need to output the preamp channels to them so that one set gets front left + side left inputs (and then outputs front left, side left and front wide left) and then repeat again for the right side. The "center channel output" creates the new in-between speaker the same way it does for L/R input with a hard center channel speaker used as originally intended. We're just changing the inputs to create a "center" between other sets of speakers in surround instead of just Left/Right. Do this again if you want extracted top middle and you have 4 Dolby Processors or AVRs and you have to keep track of all the wire labeling since obviously you're not using what's on the labels at that point. You can even then take the pre-outs for top middle left/right and create a "VOG" channel center-output there AGAIN. Pretty cool, eh? The basics are pretty simple. Just extract a center from two other in-line signals.

There's another thread on here (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-re...ive-audio.html) that deals with the subject in more detail, but it gets quite long. The basics are as outlined here.

Room Correction Concerns:

IF you use AVRs with Room Correction, you're all set. Set your main AVR to room correct. But then also room correct again with the secondary AVRs. It will simply re-correct the already corrected signals including the new ones (no harm no foul). You can also correct the main channels with say a stand alone processor and send the newly created middle channel to something like a Dirac Live unit (e.g. MiniDSP) for correction. Since many only believe in corrected below the Schrodinger limit anyway (typically below 250Hz in most rooms), you can just correct for bass and forget about the rest if you want. It won't make that much of a difference in tone/timbre and your sub is doing most of the work anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by n00b2
viewpost.gif

@MagnumX I thought that going down the PLII extraction route means Audyssey can't be calibrated for those extracted channels? Not a dealbreaker but a limitation of trying that. I also thought the extraction only works when the two adjacent speakers produce an identical signal to try and image a central position. Seems like it would work better for a TM/CH/VOG situation where you are trying to extract a central speaker rather than FW which is partway between fronts and surrounds and would rarely get an identical signal between them.
Other Concerns:


From what I've READ about PLII processing (I'm using PL 1), it appears to be mighty sensitive to volume setting differences between the two (i.e. you have front height left set to 0 and rear height set to +3 and it's not going to work right). I have not had that experience whatsoever with Pro Logic 1. It couldn't care less if the levels are off. It will adjust as normal. Distance can and DOES affect it (leak-through of extracted channels back into the mains starts), but this in my experience is a GOOD THING as you have some control over the balance of it all. I know "fully discrete" sounds great on paper, but whether it's Pro Logic 1's tendency to "steer harder" towards the center than PLII or the fact my "top middle" speakers are in the "surround height" position and slightly lower than the front/rear heights as well (due to a steel beam box in the room), I found letting a bit leak (changing the distance by 0.2 feet did the trick for me) gives enough of an "array" effect that it pulls the imaging over back in line with the mains both horizontally and vertically enough to fool my ears completely (tested with the Atmos helicopter demo; when it sounded "straight" in tracking I kept that setting. It's still "more discrete" than a matrixed effect and perhaps in a more perfect room it would be fine regardless (yes you do get panning between the speakers either way and with real material, you couldn't tell one from the other except for that trajectory change and perhaps smoother panning (less center pull) as well.

In any case, I find my "top middle" sounds freaking AWESOME now and I'm in a 24' long room with heights end-to-end and it images perfectly across the entire length of the ceiling). And it's used with EVERYTHING. Print-through tracks, 11-channel limits, Auro-3D not supporting both locations...it doesn't matter. It's simply extracting a speaker in the middle of the two like DTS:X Pro supposedly will do. It doesn't interfere. It just spans the room, bridges phantom imaging in long rooms and locks the channel in position for off-axis seats. In short, it's pretty much invisible, but solves the problems with huge angles in large rooms that might have multiple rows of seating, etc. This is why I think DTS:X Pro will rule the roost if they ever can get it released. It's not dependent on the objects or channels in the soundtrack. You can extract in-between positions all day long to create more channels (noise might be an issue after so many splits, but done digitally with at least an 8-channel framework, I don't see any issue really).
 

phillihp23

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The hookup explanation for the mixer began as such:
Originally Posted by Phillihp23
viewpost.gif

@MagnumX In order to use my front wides and a mixer.
It appears I need to buy a mixer for each side L and R.
Also what is the wiring schematic too install a mixer?
Do I install the mixer and then just rerun audessey?
As for my AVR settings. Do I put it on 7.4.6 for speaker layout?

My gear is listed below. I use an emotiva amp to power front L/R, front wide L/R, center.
Thanks in advance.
It's pretty straight forward. Just plug Left Front Pre-outs (both L/R) from the AVR into Mixer L/R Input 1 (it's a stereo mixer) and then plug the side surround pre-outs into Input 2. Take the stereo outputs and plug them into an amplifier. The controls on the front determine how much of each channel goes to the output (i.e. set them equal for mid-way between or you can adjust them if your front wides are closer to the front than the sides, etc.) Take the amplified output and send it to the left and right front wides. You can continue to use your existing mains since unlike Pro Logic extraction, it's not removing the center output from the mains. Obviously, you will need a stereo amp to power the speakers (I used this one for my surround #1 speakers for example: https://www.amazon.com/SMSL-50Wx2-TD...8530875&sr=8-3). It has the added advantage of having its own volume control for adjusting the level of the speakers independently of even the mixer.

That's what I did (rerun Audyssey) with the mixer turned on (so it averaged the array). It's best to set the levels first, though (The Dolby Atmos 9.1.6 channel test found on Dolby's web site works well for this as that one does not use the "snap to" function). Set the wides to match the front/side levels. Then run Audyssey. Audyssey will be averaged for the combination of the two sets of front speakers (main L/R and half the input to the front wides, etc.)

Use whatever layout you intend to use for actual use (i.e. 7.4.6 is fine as the front wides aren't part of the setup on the AVR as it doesn't know they exist).

I actually use three of those mixers (one for front wides, one for surround #1 and one to mix L/C/R with front height to create a "dialog lift" effect (mixes L/C/R into front heights so the front effects and dialog appear to come from the screen instead of below it. Front height is normal and passed through the mixer).

What I derived from this is the following:
Front main L/R would be pre-out to mixer input 2
Side surrounds L/R would be pre-out to mixer input 3
Front Wides L/R would be mixer output to Amp

What I don’t understand is how are the Front main L/R and Side surrounds L/R being powered then? Or even getting signal to the speakers.
Is the speaker signal output from the AVR from both pre-out and speaker wire connection? Therefore the mains and side surrounds are powered through the AVR and signals sent directly from the speaker posts?
In other words pre-out them to the mixer to create wides and also directly wire them to the AVR?
 
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Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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What I don’t understand is how are the Front main L/R and Side surrounds L/R being powered then? Or even getting signal to the speakers.


Nothing changes with the existing speakers. They will still be powered by the AVR. As for the new "matrixed" channels:

It's pretty straight forward. Just plug Left Front Pre-outs (both L/R) from the AVR into Mixer L/R Input 1 (it's a stereo mixer) and then plug the side surround pre-outs into Input 2. Take the stereo outputs [from the mixer] and plug them into an amplifier.

Attached is a block diagram.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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phillihp23

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Nothing changes with the existing speakers. They will still be powered by the AVR. As for the new "matrixed" channels:



Attached is a block diagram.

Regards,
Wayne
The diagram shows the main and surrounds hooked to the AVR RCA into the mixer. Wouldn’t I use the pre-outs from the AVR into the mixer? Do I need two mixer to do this....one for Left wide and one for Right wide?
 

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The diagram shows the main and surrounds hooked to the AVR RCA into the mixer. Wouldn’t I use the pre-outs from the AVR into the mixer?
That's what the diagram shows. "RCA Outputs" are pre-outs.

Regards,
Wayne
 

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Location
Corpus Christi, TX
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha CX-A5000 A/V Preamp / Processor
Main Amp
Yamaha RX-Z9 AV Receiver (as multichannel amp)
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Denon DCT-3313 UDCI Universal Disc Player
Front Speakers
Canton Karat 920
Center Channel Speaker
Canton Karat 920
Front Wide Speakers
Realistic Minimus 7 (front EFX speakers)
Surround Speakers
Canton Plus D
Surround Back Speakers
Yamaha YDP2006 Digital Parametric EQ (front mains)
Front Height Speakers
Yamaha YDP2006 Digital Parametric EQ (surrounds)
Rear Height Speakers
Yamaha YDP2006 Digital Parametric EQ (sub)
Subwoofers
Hsu ULS-15 MKII
Other Speakers or Equipment
Adcom ACE-515 (for power management)
Video Display Device
Yamaha DT-2 (digital clock display)
Screen
Pioneer PDP-6010FD 60" Plasma TV
Remote Control
Stock Yamaha Remote
Streaming Equipment
Roku Express
Other Equipment
Audio Control R130 Real Time Analyzer

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 21, 2017
Messages
633
Location
Corpus Christi, TX
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha CX-A5000 A/V Preamp / Processor
Main Amp
Yamaha RX-Z9 AV Receiver (as multichannel amp)
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Denon DCT-3313 UDCI Universal Disc Player
Front Speakers
Canton Karat 920
Center Channel Speaker
Canton Karat 920
Front Wide Speakers
Realistic Minimus 7 (front EFX speakers)
Surround Speakers
Canton Plus D
Surround Back Speakers
Yamaha YDP2006 Digital Parametric EQ (front mains)
Front Height Speakers
Yamaha YDP2006 Digital Parametric EQ (surrounds)
Rear Height Speakers
Yamaha YDP2006 Digital Parametric EQ (sub)
Subwoofers
Hsu ULS-15 MKII
Other Speakers or Equipment
Adcom ACE-515 (for power management)
Video Display Device
Yamaha DT-2 (digital clock display)
Screen
Pioneer PDP-6010FD 60" Plasma TV
Remote Control
Stock Yamaha Remote
Streaming Equipment
Roku Express
Other Equipment
Audio Control R130 Real Time Analyzer
LOL. Anyway – guess you’ve figured out, you will need an amplifier and additional speakers in addition to the Rolls mixer.

Regards,
Wayne
 
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