Basic amplifier power question

Coy Ramsey

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Jan 6, 2019
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42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
At 75 I'm relatively new to multi-channel audio. Have a new home and set it up with a 5.1.2 TV/movie room plus distributed audio into 4 zones. Nothing fancy; using Yamaha RX-A660 (80 w into 2 ch @ 8 ohms), Elac 5.2 debut L/C/R, and ceiling/wall speakers for everything else plus MusicCast for distributed audio. At my age I'm having some difficulty with dialog clarity and use sub-titles for almost all TV/movies so the question comes up could I improve the front speakers and improve the dialog ? The Elacs were a big step improvement over my old Def Tech 600 system but can I do better? Looking at many speaker alternatives and amp power questions come up. I see the speaker ratings (eg 20 - 100 watts), the current (eg 6 ohms), and the reviews (eg works better with "good" amplification). Also, sorta understand that my avr may not provide 80 w into 7 channels (and no pre-amp connections). How do I sum up all this info and know if a speaker combo works well with my amp or if a new amp needs to be included in the upgrade (but what power ? …)
 

Tony V.

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EV Sentry 500
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Good morning Coy, The Elac 5.2 debut are 86db sensitivity meaning they are not super efficient and may require more power than your receiver can put out to them at decent listening levels with your Yamaha being 80watts into two channels its likely only doing about 40 when running 7 channels before distortion sets in. Distortion causes loss in clarity and definition in a speaker and will happen before they start to clip.
What size is the room your system is in? this could be a factor in the issues your having.
 

jtalden

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Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
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Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
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Behringer DCX2496 x 2
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OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
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DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
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DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
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JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
Floyd Toole's book 'Sound Reproduction' reports data from Shelley and Kendrick, 2004, showing that listeners with impaired hearing (as with normal age deterioration) greatly prefer the center channel adjusted +6 dB or more so they can better understand the dialog. Normal hearing listeners prefer a +3 dB CC level. You may want to first adjust the levels to see if that resolves the problem.
 

Coy Ramsey

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Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
Good morning Coy, The Elac 5.2 debut are 86db sensitivity meaning they are not super efficient and may require more power than your receiver can put out to them at decent listening levels with your Yamaha being 80watts into two channels its likely only doing about 40 when running 7 channels before distortion sets in. Distortion causes loss in clarity and definition in a speaker and will happen before they start to clip.
What size is the room your system is in? this could be a factor in the issues your having.
Room is 14x14x9, hard surfaces, and has 1/2 wall opening into larger area. L/R speakers are out from walls by about 2 ft and cc is at the edge of a cabinet and about 1 ft from the wall. Elacs are front ported. MLP about 10 ft from cc. We do not listen loud but I do find myself inching the volume up in search of dialog clarity.
 

Coy Ramsey

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Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
Floyd Toole's book 'Sound Reproduction' reports data from Shelley and Kendrick, 2004, showing that listeners with impaired hearing (as with normal age deterioration) greatly prefer the center channel adjusted +6 dB or more so they can better understand the dialog. Normal hearing listeners prefer a +3 dB CC level. You may want to first adjust the levels to see if that resolves the problem.
Thanks, I will try that and give some feedback.
 

ddude003

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PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
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McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Other Amp
LuminU1 Mini Streamer/Transport & ChordQutest DAC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Sony TV KDL50W700B
Remote Control
Roon, Audirvana+, QoBuzStudioP & Lumin iApp...
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
Coy, you might double check YPAO, if you use it, for speaker size and distances from the MLP... Along the lines of what jtalden said, there is Dialogue Level, Dialogue Control and Dialogue Lift, see page 93 of the owners manual, that may also help... Getting EQ right in those mid frequencies may also help with Sibilance... With those room dimensions room modes might be fun... And going by the room dimensions and you comments about being about 10ft from CC, are you sitting with your back against the rear wall?
 
Last edited:

Coy Ramsey

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Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
Coy, you might double check YPAO, if you use it, for speaker size and distances from the MLP... Along the lines of what jtalden said, there is Dialogue Level, Dialogue Control and Dialogue Lift, see page 93 of the owners manual, that may also help... Getting EQ right in those mid frequencies may also help with Sibilance... With those room dimensions room modes might be fun... And going by the room dimensions and you comments about being about 10ft from CC, are you sitting with your back against the rear wall?
Ok, re-ran YPAO and distances are about right but cc was only 1dB higher than L/R. I bumped up the cc by a couple dB and will work with EQ tonight (that'll drive the wife nuts while she's trying to watch a Beatles movie ...). Yeah, I know the room is going to be a challenge. Getting some guidance from Hsu on the bass. Actually getting quite a bit of bass from a small sub. And yes, sofa backs up to rear wall.
BTW - thanks to all of you for the positive suggestions, maybe there is some hope for my old ears after-all.
 

ddude003

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Aug 13, 2017
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337
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
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PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Other Amp
LuminU1 Mini Streamer/Transport & ChordQutest DAC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Sony TV KDL50W700B
Remote Control
Roon, Audirvana+, QoBuzStudioP & Lumin iApp...
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
Coy, you haven't said if your room is acoustically treated... Rear wall diffusion and absorption is needed when the listening position is close to or against the rear wall... Purely absorptive is best for critical listening, or absorber and diffuser to add a bit more liveliness to your space...
 
Last edited:

1_sufferin_mind

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Floyd Toole's book 'Sound Reproduction' reports data from Shelley and Kendrick, 2004, showing that listeners with impaired hearing (as with normal age deterioration) greatly prefer the center channel adjusted +6 dB or more so they can better understand the dialog. Normal hearing listeners prefer a +3 dB CC level. You may want to first adjust the levels to see if that resolves the problem.
Thanks for that tidbit, jtalden! To reinforce the OP’s tendencies toward bumping CC volume, I personally find myself increasing it around 3dB in most cases. But it also varies greatly with source quality. When streaming Amazon Prime content, my theater generally sees between 3 and 6dB increases. It’s more compressed than DVD/Blu Ray so the level remains fairly constant throughout a movie/show. But pop in one of those silver discs with higher dynamic range, and it now becomes much harder to hear quiet dialogue let alone murmurs or whispers. My theater has temporarily seen as much as 12dB CC increased volume—sometimes even coupled with master volume increase!

Are soundtracks standardized? It seems to me as if some are a few sandwiches shy of a picnic. I’ve experienced titles with such huge dynamic range that I fear for my speakers during temporarily goosed passages. Has anyone wondered how bricks-and-mortar cinemas present these titles? Surely they don’t run the artist’s intended work through a gauntlet of compressors and other destructive DSP. But then again, how could an audience possibly stand the sheer volume difference? Are cinema center channel speakers so much better than commercial offerings that they don’t need to be “cranked?”
 

jtalden

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May 22, 2017
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Arizona, USA
My AV System  
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Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
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Rotel RMB-1066 6 chnl P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
1_,
My experience is the same as yours. Group discussions at restaurants are also impossible - no level control!
 

Coy Ramsey

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Thread Starter
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Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
Played with EQ and volumes last night while watching "Yesterday" (blu ray). On this particular movie I seemed to make some progress but there is a lot about EQ that I don't yet understand. Responding to ddude003 - no, I have not done much in the way of room treatment as yet since we only recently moved in. For starters we are planning on adding a rug, maybe covering 1/2 of the hardwood/concrete floor, see below.
Do you have slap echo in your room? We do in our new home, and dialog is sometimes very hard to understand.
New house with high ceilings and reflective surfaces is giving me a lot of issues with hearing. No noticeable "slap echo" but that may be just to my ears. Typically have to ask wife to repeat things and one daughter is almost unintelligible to me. Making some progress; ie rugs on floors, books in bookcases, etc, etc
 

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NBPK402

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We have the same problem with a 32' hard surface ceiling, walls, and floor. We have put down a rug, hung heavy curtains, and sometimes leave a window open, and that has helped a lot. Next will be room treatments.
 

jchamlin

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Definitive Technology BP2000
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Definitive Technology CLR2000
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Definitive Technology Di 5.5BPS
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Definitive Technology Di 5.5BPS
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Definitive Technology UIW BPZ/A
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Miller & Kreisel MX-100 & MX-125 Mk Ii
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Definitive Technology Di 8R Top Middle & VoG
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Epson 5050UB & LG C8 65"
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Stewart Filmscreen Greyhawk 120"
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Harmony One
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DISH Hopper 3, ATV4k, FTV4k, CC Ultra
I have the same problem. I have a large 15x22x12 room, and somewhat reflective, especially high up. I am getting old and my hearing and dialog comprehension is going away with age. However, I have carpet AND and front rug, and my back wall doesn't exist (open to another room). I use Definitive Technology BP2000s for mains and CLR2000 for center from late 1990s (older DT stuff is quite a bit better than anything else they made after that). And I use a Yamaha RX-3070 receiver and YPAO. But I have trouble with dialog, especially in high dynamic range movies with dialog mastered at a lower than usual level where I have to turn it up and then the loud parts are just way too loud. Here are my suggestions for what worked for me, in order of priority. Start at the first and work your way down, you don't want to waste time on the last part of the list if the things on the first part of the list aren't tried / addressed first.

1) Make sure your center is aimed directly at ear-level of your MLP. It might need to be angled slightly up or down. Sit there for all the steps below. And first get MLP to work well for you by trying all the steps below. Only then, once you have good results at MLP, then move on to tuning other seats, if still necessary. And make sure it is really pushed all the way to the edge of the table, maybe even sticking out a hair past the edge.

2) Try simply adjusting dialog level in the pop-up menu. Option->Dialog->Dialog Level and DTS Dialog Control for DTS sources. Also make sure Dialog Lift shows off (--), as it can spread the dialog across all three front speakers. You don't need that in your setup and it can muddy the dialog.

3) Check your Yamaha DSP soundfield setting. Turn off soundfield (use straight, optionally with Dolby Surround Upmixing on: press the surround decode button once after pressing straight, it is a cleaner DSP/upmixer for dialog). If that doesn't help, try Pure Direct mode and see if that helps. If it does, something with your YPAO settings is causing the problem.

4) If you have the ability to compare: compare a source like a Blu-ray with Dolby True HD (+Atmos if it has it) or DTS HD Master Audio (+DTS:X if it has it), which is uncompressed, to the streaming version of the same like from Netflix, that will use 2.0 or 5.1 (or Dolby Atmos if you have the Ultra HD plan) over Dolby Digital Plus (DD+), which will be highly compressed for streaming. If the streaming is worse, you are sensitive to compression artifacts like I am. You'll need to make adjustments for compressed audio. I use two speaker configurations in the Yamaha, one for movies with uncompressed audio, one for streaming movies with compressed audio. If that's the case I can share the details with you on how to change your setup to compensate.

5) Some stations / sources / devices (like Fire TV Stick 4k and local channels on my Dish Hopper 3) erroneously send 2 channel PCM as DD 5.1 with only two channels active (L+R). This will bypass you AVR's ability to detect and decode Dolby Pro Logic, and will spread the center channel out into your left and right speakers. This is the worst case for me, dialog becomes very unintelligible except at the perfect sweet spot of MLP. Force your source to 2.0 PCM instead for that material and that will properly engage DSU which will do Dolby Pro Logic IIz like extraction which will center most dialog to the center channel speaker.

6) Get a rug on that hardwood floor in front of the TV. If you don't have an appropriate sized rug, just throw down a blanket. Adjust the size of the blanket to see how various sizes rugs would affect dialog ... spread out to cover in front of the center, and then all the way out in front of your mains. Try different blankets, some are more absorbing than others. See if that helps with early reflections from the center speaker from floor. Also, hang something (with low adhesion painter's tape) to the wall under the TV behind the center speaker and also on the wall behind your mains, and also place the center on a towel (I know you have it pushed forward, but the surface under it can still add reflections). If any of that helps, some acoustic treatment / rugs will be helpful.

7) For wide dynamic range source material, turn on Yamaha's dynamic range compression. Then you can raise the volume (and overall dialog level) without raising the maximum volume to levels that are too loud.

8) Try with and without YPAO Volume and Adaptive DRC engaged and see if that helps. It will compensate with EQ for various listening levels to match human hearing response. I like both on.

9) If the problem is mostly with male (lower) voices check the integration of your center with your sub(s). With the couch at the back wall and a less-than-capable center a lot of male vocals will have a good portion run through the sub and the back wall reflections will make it worse. Move your sub around the room (Google "subwoofer crawl") and see if that helps. Move your MLP away from the back wall (temporary) and see if that helps. If it does, acoustic treatment on the back wall will help. Dual identical subwoofers might help too.

10) Check the speaker crossover setting (for the center channel if your AVR supports individual crossover per speaker which the higher-end Yamahas do). If it is higher than 80Hz (what YPAO detected) then you have work to do. You may need to upgrade all speakers to ones that YPAO detects are capable of less than 80Hz (it will set crossover(s) at or less than 80Hz if all your speakers are capable). Then play with the crossover settings (for the center or for all speakers) between what YPAO detected but only up to 80Hz. You don't want to go higher than 80Hz as you can then localize the sub and the portion of male vocals above 80Hz that can be localized will be spread between the center and subwoofer.

11) If all else fails, get a quality monaural headphone that's comfortable and wear it in/on your best ear and drive it from the center channel preamp out (yes, you can drive both a speaker with the speaker connector and something else with the preamp output at the same time). Get one with human vocal filtering/focus, zero delay with small adjustability (so wireless is probably out, but you may need a small delay to compensate for the difference between the headphone and center channel distances), and that doesn't block outside sound like on open design. Then you can adjust your personal center level as you please and hear dialog clearly and still enjoy immersive audio. Consider it your immersive audio hearing aid.

Try combinations of these things because one can affect the others. I know that's a lot of combinations. You can try sticking to varying things that clearly do make an improvement for you, and skip varying those than don't make any difference.

Good luck and please follow-up and share your experience, especially if something worked so that others can benefit from your experience.

All of these things together worked for me and made a huge difference (except #11, and I'm researching that now).
 
Last edited:

chili555

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At 75 I'm relatively new to multi-channel audio. .... At my age I'm having some difficulty with dialog clarity and use sub-titles for almost all TV/movies ....
I had that exact problem myself when I was a lad of only 75.

Have you had your hearing professionally tested?
 

Coy Ramsey

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
Wow, I have rec'd a lot of useful ideas from this thread and for that I thank all of you for your experience & suggestions. My recent foray into equalization has yielded some hopeful results. The Yamaha has a 6-7 band graphic equalizer for each speaker and I've read a few useful articles on how to improve dialog via EQ. Previously I had blundered around with EQ and my speaker settings were all over the map so I started recording my settings and paying attention to the human speech frequencies and I seem to be making some progress, at least with TV dialog. Just got a couple of Blu-ray dvd's (ATMOS) from the library and need to try them out today. JCHamlin provided a very detailed list of things to try on my room/setup and I need to work thru them - I did try a rug on the floor in front of the CC cabinet but it mysteriously relocated itself back to the hallway while I was out of the house ...:justdontknow: so I assume that that particular idea has been shelved by a higher authority.
 

Tony V.

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Onkyo TX RZ920
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Samson Servo 600
Additional Amp
QSC MX1500
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic 220
Front Speakers
EV Sentry 500
Center Channel Speaker
EV Sentry 500
Surround Speakers
Mission 762
Surround Back Speakers
Mission 762
Subwoofers
SVS PB13u
Video Display Device
Panasonic AE 8000
Remote Control
Logitech 1100
Other Equipment
Denon DT 625 CD/Tape unit, Nintendo WiiU, and more
One other challenge you have in your room is its dimensions, you basically have a perfect square so you are going to have issues with cancelation of certain frequencies due to that. Room treatment such as suggested carpet or rug in front of the entertainment centre would greatly help so you may want to work on the WAF if possible. Another one is move your listening position forward away from any rear wall a couple feet if possible.
 

Coy Ramsey

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Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
I had that exact problem myself when I was a lad of only 75.

Have you had your hearing professionally tested?
Yes, the "doctor" said that I needed expensive hearing aids - and he just happened to have them for sale.
I certainly do have hi-f hearing loss (above 10k) and tinnitus, so I tend to listen to 1m crickets chirping constantly. Otherwise, my hearing is fine.
 

Coy Ramsey

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
I would look into treating one wall completely with absorption to try and overcome the square room sound.
Question about that suggestion. Do you think that the blinds (hard plastic) along the entire left side wall of the picture make for an effective diffuser (also behind the speakers on the front wall) ? I also have experimented with a rug on the floor in front of the cabinet and moved chairs (like the blue one) to break up reflections but can't really tell any difference, at least with these attempts.
 

ddude003

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337
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Other Amp
LuminU1 Mini Streamer/Transport & ChordQutest DAC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Sony TV KDL50W700B
Remote Control
Roon, Audirvana+, QoBuzStudioP & Lumin iApp...
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
I doubt the blinds offer much acoustic help unless they are made specifically for noise reduction... Don't confuse absorption with diffusion and the acoustic result of each...

It might be time to use REW to see what is going on in your room...
 

1_sufferin_mind

Active Member
Supporter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
490
Location
Indianapolis
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-2
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
McCormack DNA-1 Custom Monoblocks (On Standby)
Other Amp
Woo Audio WA6se w/ Audeze LCD-2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-95
Front Speakers
Revel Ultima Salon
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice
Surround Speakers
PSB Image B5
Subwoofers
Seaton Sound Submersive F2+/- pair
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cary SLP98P / VPI SuperScout with JMW9 & Hana MH
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED 65CX
Screen
TBD
Other Equipment
JVC X70R Proj ; PS Audio PWD w/ Streaming Bridge
Typically have to ask wife to repeat things and one daughter is almost unintelligible to me.
I used to repeat the mistaken belief my hearing was at fault for misunderstanding young people until my wife pointed out that a lot of them speak quickly and mumble.
 

1_sufferin_mind

Active Member
Supporter
Joined
Apr 17, 2017
Messages
490
Location
Indianapolis
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Emotiva XMC-2
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-5
Additional Amp
McCormack DNA-1 Custom Monoblocks (On Standby)
Other Amp
Woo Audio WA6se w/ Audeze LCD-2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo BDP-95
Front Speakers
Revel Ultima Salon
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice
Surround Speakers
PSB Image B5
Subwoofers
Seaton Sound Submersive F2+/- pair
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cary SLP98P / VPI SuperScout with JMW9 & Hana MH
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED 65CX
Screen
TBD
Other Equipment
JVC X70R Proj ; PS Audio PWD w/ Streaming Bridge
I would look into treating one wall completely with absorption to try and overcome the square room sound.
Room modes are fixed based on dimensions, but can be ameliorated with bass trapping. I prefer to address those before HF reflection, because a muddy bottom obscures mid and upper level detail. Be careful your LF traps disperse mid and high frequencies rather than absorb them or your room can become overdamped, which contributes to unintelligible dialogue.
 

Coy Ramsey

Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Jan 6, 2019
Messages
42
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha Aventage RX-A660 AVR
Other Amp
4 Yamaha WX50 amps for MusicCast distributed audio
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony X700
Front Speakers
Elac Debut 2.0 BS5.2
Center Channel Speaker
Elac Debut 2.0 CC5.2
Surround Speakers
Polk in-wall
Rear Height Speakers
Polk in-ceiling
Subwoofers
Def Tech 600 (upgrade pending)
Other Speakers or Equipment
Episode ceiling speakers for 4 distributed zones
Video Display Device
Samsung
Screen
65"
Remote Control
Logitech Harmony
Other Equipment
Yamaha CD changer, Roku 2 (upgrade pending).
I doubt the blinds offer much acoustic help unless they are made specifically for noise reduction... Don't confuse absorption with diffusion and the acoustic result of each...

It might be time to use REW to see what is going on in your room...
We have a 7' x 8' wool rug coming for the floor in front of the center speaker, hope that it will be a start. Played John Wick 2 BluRay last night and the audio was impressive in my 5.1.2 system but still had the subtitles on. Suprising amount of bass coming from the little Def Tech sub (next item to upgrade, watching the sales). I anticipate a long learning curve with REW but willing to give it a go.
 
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