Yamaha Aventage RX-A3080

[BSS]

Recently I just purchased the Yamaha Aventage RX-A3080 to replace my old marantz SR7005. Below are some of my view and some of my question. I hope someone can really help to solve my problem. I have experience with the marantz for the pass 8 years, therefore all the comment or test on Yamaha is benchmark to the sound that I heard from marantz AVR.

1) Background Music is too low, and the vocal is so loud.
- first of all I notice after I do the calibration on the Yamaha AVR is that, it tend to produce a strong vocal and not bringing up the background music. This is different than what I heard from marantz. I tested few sound such as "Yao Si Ting - Speak Softly, Love". When I was using marantz, at the beginning when the music started, the guitar and the saxophone sound level is so low that it doesn't feel like exciting me. I dont feel the loud warm sound that make the music appealing anymore. I used to feel the sound like running through a class A amplifier sound. But with Yamaha, no matter how I tune it, the background music just isn't that loud compare to the vocal anymore.
- I tried to call the support guys and get some neighbour to come over to hear their thought on it. And my neighbour feel the same way as I felt too. It isn't bad, but its just like the AVR is focusing so much on the vocal, it feel like the AVR is more for an old man that listening to old song and there is no fun in listen to more dynamic music. that is what my neighbour said. Even the support guy from Yamaha say the same thing too. So it firm that this Yamaha operate and handle the sound in this manner and maybe this is its signature.
- The frustration is that when I am listening to music like slow rock, pop song and etc, I wanted also to hear the drum, the treble, the music instrument as loud as I can. It just the same as jazz or blue where vocal is the main thing about it. But I cant because when I increase the volume, the vocal get so loud and it hurt my ear.
- My question is that, any way I can decrease the vocal an pump up the background music. Obviously I try to use the PEQ, but its the same.

2) Pre-out 5.1-amp doesnt work
- With marantz or even other AVR that I used before, I was always able to do 5.1 channel bi-amp using full pre-out. You see, I have a discrete amplifier and I do believe and tested that having external amplifier is so important and it make sound better in every way. But there seem to be problem on doing this setup. In the configuration, I set it to "7.2 bi-amp configuration". For the front speaker, I plug in to the pre-out (front) and pre-out (presence 1). There is no sound coming from pre-out presence 1. I thought it was hardware faulty, but when I test full 7.1 channel without bi-amp, all the channel pre-out is working. so its obviously that 5.1 bi-amp pre-out configuration is not working.
- so what I did now is having the front pre-out together with AVR speaker terminal as the bi-amp. I dont know if this has any impact on the result quality due to different output source (one from external amp, and another one from AVR amp), but I am going to use XLR and stop the bi-amp once my XLR cable arrived.
- anyone encounter anything on just issue?

3) I dont think the YPAO calibration is a good job.
- First of all this is my personally thought, and I am not condemning Yamaha or the technology of anything.
- With marantz SR7005, with its simple Audessy XT, there isn't must setting that need to be done. Once its calibrated, all that I need to do is turn on the Audessy Volume and Audessy EQ. The Music become live, more stages feeling, and everything is good. Even when I increase or decrease the volume, all the sound can be heard. The best thing is that (maybe everyone knows about it), when it's on low volume, the music background and the vocal is adjusted so that I can hear everything at the same sound level. When the volume is increased, it does the same thing, so it feel really really loud and fun to listen to music. The vocal will not be to loud, nor does the background music. Everything is felt like its balance. But this is not the case with Yamaha. After the YPAO calibration , its still has all sort of other feature that need to be adjusted to get the optimal sound, which I dont understand why it should be there, if YPAO calibration can do a better job in the first place. Obviously, in my thought it does not. I am still encountering few issue like bass is not strong when or where it should be strong, background music should be strong as when or where it should be. Dialogue should be loud whenever or wherever it should be. But I need to set manually on basically every source I played. For example, there is this dialogue level that used to increase the dialogue level so it can be heard clearly during movie. I played different movie and found that the dialogue level are not automatically adjusted by the YPAO or the DRC feature. Such as the Lord of ring and jumanji. I need to increase the dialogue more on Lord of the ring movie as compare to jumanji. But why isn't the YPAO calibration doing it automatically? I tried playing it on marantz using Audessy XT. It was handle perfectly without me doing any tunning. Obviously the YPAO calibration did manage to solve the issue automatically, so there is need of the dialogue level function. Also there is this function called "extra bass". In Audessy XT, the bass management was done well enough that even my center speaker once set to "Large Speaker" can pump out so much of bass. Again the argument is why does Yamaha include in "extra bass", why not just calibrate the sound using YPAO properly and have more of automatically or intelligent sound management by itself. And there is DRC,DSP-level, and other thing to set. which I just don't find it logic to have , if the YPAO calibration can be done better, which it is not as compare to what audessy is doing.
- There is just too much of setting that is not necessary and giving me too much of headache to figure out what to use on different type of source. And obviously with all the setting, I can't even get the background music as loud as the vocal. Every-time when listen to music, I need to turn few setting off, and turn few setting on. And when I watch movie, I have to do the same thing again. There is so much of work, which make me feel that Yamaha AVR is really not doing the thing it suppose to do, which is to AUTOMATICALLY calibrate the sound. Isn't that the purpose of all the expensive stuff in AVR? isn't that the purpose of buying AVR and all the sound processing feature?

 

[Sonnie Parker]

This has been moved to the AVR forum, as it is not really a review like we looking for in the End-User reviews forum.

Hopefully others that are familiar with this unit can chime in and help you with your issues.

 

[Todd Anderson]

@BSS, for background music being too low, I'd bet money that you have "Dialog Lift" engaged in the settings. Perhaps YPAO engaged it during calibration. Also, post YPAO, go into your speaker settings and make sure that your speakers and crossover points are all set correctly. Sometime calibration software can set some speakers to small... others to large... and royally screw up the X-over settings for your sub. I'd also use an SPL meter to make sure it has your channel levels appropriately leveled at 75dB.

For your pre-out issue. I'm not entirely sure... but I think you probably need to go into amp configuration settings for the 7.2-bi amp configuration to make sure the settings are all correct. Again, I can't remember all of the ins and outs of the menu system, but if you dig through, I think you'll get that straightened out.

As for your post YPAO results... I echo what I say above. Definitely go into your speaker settings menus and make sure that the speakers you want to pair with your sub are all set to "small." It could be that some are "large" and some are "small." Also, make sure the RX-A3080 doesn't have Adaptive Dynamic Range Control engaged. That could messing with your perceived volume levels. I believe there's also a low volume setting bass boost feature. IMO, turn all of that kind of processing off.


Check some of those things out and then report back! ;-) Let us know what's happening.

 

[BSS]

Hi Todd,

Thanks for the help. Below is my finding

1) I'd bet money that you have "Dialog Lift"
--> I do not use dialog lift. Since I am not using height speaker and just a simple 5.1 speaker, and not the fan of virtual presence surround, therefore "dialog lift" is not applicable to me.

2) Perhaps YPAO engaged it during calibration.
--> The YPAO didn't engaged it. The function of dialog lift is a manual setup and not part of the default YPAO calibration.

3) Let me explain more on the "background music" in more precious. When I say the background music is low than the vocal, it doesn't mean that its is lower by 30% or 40%, but I can obviously feel the background music is much lower than the vocal. How do I define it or tell that its lower. During the time when I am using marantz, when listening to the music, at the initiate stage of the song, there is music being played, and when the singer start to sing after few second, I can still feel that the background music is still there. But with Yamaha, the background music definitely is still there, but the vocal easily out loud or cover the background music. And I can feel that the background music do no have enough "WEIGHT" to it too. Just like hearing the violin through class D as compare to class A sound. Class A has so much weight on the sound as compare to class D, which feel very light. And I think partially because of the effect, that I feel that the background music just doesn't as balance and as strong as it should be when music is played. But the vocal presentation on Yamaha is really much better than my old marantz. Where the clarity is there, the wide sound stage is there. Its just feel the background music is too light and the vocal is over powering it. I have try to use different setting like 2-speaker setting, using this I can totally eliminate the dolby surround processing on the music. but even with the 2-speaker setting, I still can feel that the background music is not as loud as the marantz, and not as "weight" as the marantz, The only way I can try to fix this issue is by using the YPAOhrough. If I am using YPAO:front or YPAO:Flat, I got even worst reason. Apart from this, I also increase the tone control to +6db, adaptive DRC:off,YPAO volume:on and Enhancer:On.

4) Sometime calibration software can set some speakers to small...
--> either I put small or large, it doesnt matter. Large and Small is just crossing out the low frequency to the sub. The background music is not coming from the sub and is not of that frequency. And further more, I am using and testing using 2-speaker setup. And it's about to handle full range dynamic sound, so crossing out does not solve this issue that I have here.

5) Talking about item "3", it doesnt apply to movie with dolby and dts format. In fact in movie, I find that the vocal is too low. And switching from movie to movie, I have to adjust the "dialog level" at lot. But if I am using AI, this solve the problem. You see, what I am trying to say here is that the adjust of the PEQ from Yamaha is not good enough. Unless Audessy from Marantz, no matter what source I throw to it, it will just give me a very minimum setting. Most of the time I can just ignore it, and just plug and play. But with Yamaha, every source I throw in, will need me to do a lot of setting. This for me means that the auto PEQ of YPAO is just not good enough. Talking about PEQ, I am thinking of using REW to measure it and adjust it manually.

6) For your pre-out issue.
-> yes, I am using 7.2-bi amp configuration. Come on, don't treat me like a beginner, ..this is a most basic configuration. I have check through the whole user manual, there isn't any information about pre-out for bi-amp. I can bet money on this. It only support bi-amp in it's own terminal speaker setup. I guess Yamaha things that to have the best bi-amp setting, it should be done on an amplifier level with build-in bi-amp feature. It make sense to say that why a bi-amp configuration should be done through two RCA to discrete amplifier and utilising two amplification output. This is what I am guessing.

7) Adaptive Dynamic Range Control engaged. That could messing with your perceived volume levels.
--> I do not entirely agree with u on this. Its quite a useful feature to get the voice louder in a movie even with the AI feature turn on. I tried with a movie (I forget the name but its a horror movie). There is a scene, in a where its environment is quiet in a laboratory at night. And guys were whispering to his friend to move silently through the hall to avoid getting notice by the killer. When I turn off the ADRC with AI turn on, I can hear the guys whispering every word, but with ADRC turn on, I can sharply get the whispering in details, which is the high pitch part. But I do agree with you when listening to music. This ADRC just spoil the whole song. frequency that suppose to be louder its being suppressed GREATLY. And with AI turn on, its even worst, the bass was totally gone. No matter how much I max out the bass such as tone control, extra bass and volume trim for bass, the bass just went off. listening to techno music with AI turn on just feel like cross-over the entire music to 500hz without subwoofer. But this is just for music. For movie with dolby and DTS format, turn AI on doesnt impact anything on the bass. It just adjust the voice and mid-freq louder. And it work perfectly. But again, this is really a confusing configuration and feature as compare to Audessy. If I am a beginner and not familiar with AVR, for sure I will be left with total bad impression on Yamaha.

8) IMO, turn all of that kind of processing off.
-> right and wrong. My experience is, with music, all processing should be turn off. My setting is
a) Parametric EQ >> YPAO Straight,
b) Ultra Low Jitter PLL Mode: Off
c) DAC Digital Filter: Slow Roll-Off Type
d) Tone Control : Both +6db
e) YPAO Volume : On
f) YPAO Volume >> Adaptive DRC : off
g) Enhancer : on
h) Enhance >> Hi-Res Mode : Off
i) Volume TRIM >> Subwoofer TRIM : depending on your preference
j) Extra Bass : On
k) DSP Mode : 9-speaker or 2-speaker, but "NO" Dolby surround processing.
l) AI : Turn OFF (MUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
-> For movie, some processing need to be turn to allow clearer voice and dynamic effect:
a) Parametric EQ >> YPAO FLAT or YPAO Front,
b) Ultra Low Jitter PLL Mode: Off
c) DAC Digital Filter: Slow Roll-Off Type
d) Tone Control : Both +6db
e) YPAO Volume : On
f) YPAO Volume >> Adaptive DRC : ON
g) Enhancer : on
h) Enhance >> Hi-Res Mode : Off
i) Volume TRIM >> Subwoofer TRIM : depending on your preference
j) Extra Bass : On
k) DSP Mode : Dolby surround processing ONLY to full movie experience, because each speaker has its own sound. and that is why dolby and Dts is created.
l) AI : Turn on, if AI is not used, then the dialog level need to be higher. With AI turn on, the dialog level I prefer is "1". "3" is too high. "2" is also too high for most of the movie.

 

[BSS]

Hi Todd,

I need to say this. I am not saying that the Yamaha aventage is not a good AVR as compare to marantz as I have before. There is still tonnes of advantage of aventage, especially the sound clarity and the price point. Even the bass is much tighter than my old marantz. And the vocal sound better as the clarity is there as compare to. But its rather the complexity of the configuration that is the biggest problem. This is well known as YPAO is not as good as compare to Audessy. You can see the comment everywhere in the internet.

And for the way how Yamaha play the music, its really their signature and their preference, which its totally not suitable for my taste. At least few of my friends and neighbour has the same opinion on the vocal and music background issue. apart from that, all of us do agreed that the sound clarity, the bass tightness is totally excellent.

And by the way the XLR really sound better and you won't want to avoid using it.
I just hope Yamaha see this and do something about YPAO.....

 

[BSS]

Just another update. I thought I was the only one that experience the "background music/sound" and "Vocal" imbalance, but turn out that I wasn't alone after all. And it prove I have a wonderful ear. I found someone commenting the same about Yamaha AVR, but he was using the old Yamaha RX-2030. Below is the link for who that may concern.

https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-AV77...fkmr0&keywords=Marantz+AV7705#customerReviews

Said:
"All of these sounds were noticeable before but, if the main movie volume was playing at level 10, then those background noises were playing at level 4 to 5."