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Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Todd Anderson, Oct 18, 2017.
SVS owners unite! Share what you've got!
For the past month or two I've been running dual SB16 Ultras... Yup. Ridiculous amount of power... serious room gain... wonderful build quality. SVS definitely hit it out of the park, so to speak, with the integrated app and EQ options. You can read all of my system impressions in a full review, here.
Rocking a single (for now) PB16-Ultra. I like to call it "The Beast"
What size room do you have that puppy in? How'd you settle on one port closed?
It's in my living room which is open on both sides to the house. I think the whole house is like 1600 square feet so thing really fills the house with bass. I went with one port closed since it extends the tuning range a little lower and I mainly use it for movies.
Sounds like you did your homework! ;-) Awesome piece of gear!
Just picked this up! Don’t really know what it is yet, but it sounds great so far!
little late to the game Atmundo, but that looks like a PC-12 NSD from back in the day. I had one of those good subs
How has the PB16 been working for you?
I have these sitting, waiting to anchor a two channel system someday.
I have dual PC-2000’s I got just about 3 years ago. I been itching to upgrade to 2 of the new PB-3000’s since I been feeling the only thing lacking in my setup is the bass. Don’t get me wrong they impress at times and just don’t other times when I would expect them too. They were the first dual subwoofers ive had and replaced a budget BIC F12. That’s what lead me to this site and these forums as I am waiting for my umik-1 to be delivered as I get ready to jump down the REW rabbit hole. My room is fairly small and almost square at 12x11x8 so 2 PC-2000’s should be enough. So I have done bass crawls and tried different placements which are limited do to the height of the subs but still feel it’s lacking. Figured it was time to give REW a try and see what it say and if it can help. I think my room is the problem and maybe just haven’t found the right placement, settings or combo of the 2. I pretty much did a sub crawl ran audyssey and left alone. Though I have moved the one sub to the back so that both are now in the rear corners. The room door prevents me from placing in one front corner and there’s no room in the other front corner due to my current setup. I wanna play with it more which I am hoping is where REW will help. I went cylinder for the smaller foot print which ended up backfiring as if I went PB-2000 I actually would have a few more placement options so I may still end up trying to go dual PB-3000’s anyway.
Hey @CBCstillmatic - bass can be tough and the suggested placement areas don't always give you what you want. I've always found best placement places in my room to be the front and rear-wall 1/4 points. As for Audyssey... it could be that it's setting your bass output level a tad low. I know it's all personal taste, but I always boost my bass quite a bit (using a hand-held SPL meter). My multi-channels are all leveled at 75dB, while subs are set at 80-ish. Most of the time, that gives me the powerful low-end that my ears prefer (which is all that matters, right?). I think you'll find REW to be very helpful. What it measures might not end up sounding perfect to your ears, but it's going to get you a lot closer than guessing!
I’m sorry I know I said I set it and forget it and that’s my fault but I actually do go by the general rule of putting the gain on the subs to where audyssey will be -8 to -10 ish, avoiding getting too close to zero or maxing it at -12. I then usually increase it 3 - 5 dB from there each sub. I’ve read many an audyssey threads and followed every guideline so it’s kinda second nature now. I haven’t tried the 1/4 points on my back walls and was gonna order an SPL meter to help out with my testing. But then I started reading articles on why the sub crawl doesn’t actually work and what to do instead. Then I read with REW there really is no other need to guess anymore and with it’s room simulator I can essentially find the best place for them. So instead of and SPL meter I ordered a Umik-1. So I’m excited since I like learning new things and hopefully it will help my entire setup and not just the sub.
With the Umik-1, you can just physically move the speakers and re-measure. Just make sure the mic doesn't move! ;-) You'll enjoy it... it's a great tool!
Yeah I have a lot to learn with REW. I may have gotten in over my head. I know I run REW and adjust the subs before I run audyssey but as far as the rest of the system I am assuming I would make changes post audyssey if somethings off? I was under the impression REW room simulator would give placement recommendations to start with, is that not so? I also understand REW is really for tinkering and fine tuning with lots of measurements, moving, adjustments and testing. I just gotta keep reading up on REW while I wait for the umik to be delivered. Thank you for your replies.
You can capture your sub performance before and after running room correction... in fact, since you have the gear, definitely do that. You're basically running a frequency sweep and looking to see the measured response... and you can save the resulting data to compare different sweeps. For me, I'm hardly an expert when it comes to the software (I only use its most basic features), but there are lots of folks on the forum that know it inside and out (including its creator, John Mulcahy, who is here on AV NIRVANA patrolling the official help forum). So don't be shy about asking the most basic of questions. The software is fairly easy to navigate once you get rolling... of course you can also share graphs, etc, to get feedback from others. There is a room simulator. You can use that as a starting point. I'd also get a couple of long cables and carpet/floor sliders and and take some quick and dirty measurements as you move things around. Once you start getting closer to ideal, then you can really start to dial things in. Ultimately, your goal is to get things as close to as ideal with the gear and space you have.
agreed with what's been said here. While we can get into the nitty gritty bits of science with REW and find out what your room's acoustics are doing, many times a quick and dirty approach will get you 95% of the way there. The sub crawl is incredibly effective unless your subs suddenly create a suck out due to cancellation (but that's not wildly common, as much as it comes up on the boards). as weith Audessey, it's never right for the LFE for my personal tastes. Get a good SPL meter from radio shack and manually check the output levels of all speakers and the subs at listening position. Many people like listening to subs a bit hotter than what Audessey tells you to put it at (me by like 5-6 dbs) so I always hit it at about 75dbs for the listening position at a specific volume, then manually adjust the sub to about 80-81 also, to PC 2000's may seem like a lot, but in a room that size, that would be lacking for me. Two PB 2000s would be a diffferent story, but I would have gone with 4 of the sealed PC's in that room (yes, I have bass cravings). Those sealed are nice and clean, but they don't have the output as a pair of ported 12s would have. I had dual ported 10s (PB 1000s) in a room that size and I felt like I needed more headroom
The PC-2000's aren't sealed, they are the Ported Cylinder shaped equivalent to the PB-2000's so not sure why 2 PB's would be a different story vs the 2 PC's unless you're referring to downward firing vs front firing? I have done lots of sub crawls and have moved the subs a couple of times, I now have a collection of different length subwoofer cables too! lol. I do run them about 5-6db hot. I got audyssey to trim the levels to -8 and -10 which I would then increase to -2 and -4 manually post calibration. I have also spoke to SVS and tried stuff they recommended and something still feels lacking so it may just be the almost square room I'm in, which I have read is the worst for subs. I am on AVS forum a lot, it was recommended there to just get REW and a umik-1 to stop doing the crawl and guess work and get the actual best locations. That is what led me here to download REW and join these forums. I am glad to see there seams to be lots of nice people here willing to help, so thank you for your replies. I see what you're saying about the SPL meter and I may order one. I did not initially since I was under the impression I could get SPL levels with the Umik and REW, though I see how a stand alone SPL meter would be easier for quick minor adjustments to the speaker levels.
you're right, that was my bad. I was thinking of the SB-2000s, long day. as for a square room, yes, square rooms with front corner placement can be nasty. Most likely a suck out somewhere. My bedroom setup is a square room (12x14 with 8 foot ceilings) and I had to fight a bit to get good bass. I lucked out and could get 1/4 placement in the front and rear of the room and was able to get most of them, but front corner placement was atrocious with the PB-1000's was less than satisfactory.. have you tried the sub crawl with only one sub? see if that makes a difference? I'm wondering if you're having a cancellation node at your listening position with both subs running at once.
So initially I chose the best 2 locations with one sub on the couch. I have tried choosing the best 2 locations running both subs on the couch at the same time too. I have accidentally ran just one sub when I didn't realize I accidentally flipped the power switch while moving the other. I knew instantly something was off so it is definitely better with both running. It was also recommended to me to try near field placement right behind my couch which I have not tried yet since I felt there wasn't a good response there during the sub crawl but who knows maybe I don't have the ear for the crawl and am misinterpreting what is supposed to be best. They are in the rear corners since that is what sounded best to me during the last crawl. Last location had one sub somewhere between 1/4 and front corner but it has been better since moved to the rear where I have more options for placements. I have tried using pink noise, music and bass sweeps for the crawl. If I throw in the Atmos version of Metallica's Through the Never I get a grin from ear to ear as I truly get that concert feeling and feel every kick drum in my chest but then during movies some explosions sound and feel truly awesome but most of the time I feel it falls flat like "where did my bass go, are they on?". So I think I definitely have a problem at some frequencies. See I went PC for the smaller footprint in my smaller room but that had backfired as I actually lose more placement options vs the PB's. I can't go 1/4 wall in the rear cause 2 of my ProMonitor 1000's are wall mounted and low enough to be in the way of putting the sub there. I also lose potential placement options in the front where the sub would block some of the screen or interfere with the mains. Had I gone PB I would have been much less prohibited in options with the box form. By the time I redid some of my room and setup I was past the 45 day trial to try and swap them out so I have been trying to just make them work somewhere. I may ultimately just try and sell and go back to box shaped subs and might as well upgrade while I'm at it just incase it is just me expecting too much from the 2000's. I don't know but either way I figured learning REW could potentially help me now and still be valuable in the future whenever I decide to upgrade.
when you have really difficult placement issues or nulls (which it sounds like you have), REW is worth it's weight in gold