Opinion needed on my SVS Ultra speaker and possible changes for the surrounds

[Talley]

So I have the SVS Ultra Towers for L and R and the Ultra Center. My two rear speakers are the Ultra Bookshelves. I started to think a bit and was wondering if I should sell the Ultra Bookshelves and pick up the Prime Towers instead to handle the rear. I don't really want to have ultra towers all around but I do like the tower look and will eventually be moving toward Aura3d setup so my rears will need to be floor level while all my ceiling/heights I'll probably just get the prime bookshelves to handle that.

Ultra Bookshelf:

• Tweeter | 1"
• Midrange | N/A
• Woofer | 6.5"
• Freq. Response | 45 Hz-32 kHz (±3 dB)

Prime Tower:

• Tweeter | 1"
• Midrange | 4.5"
• Woofer | Dual 6.5"
• Freq. Response | 30 Hz-25 kHz (±3 dB)

The reason I ask is because I will eventually be moving my room around so I can have a 7.1 surround system but I only have the 5 speakers. I don't really want to buy two more ultra bookshelves at $1000 for the pair when I could sell my two Ultra's for say 600 and then buy 4 prime towers and the total cost would be 1400 out of my pocket. Sure it's a tad more but with the idea of my ceiling speakers being the prime bookshelfs the surround part of the system would be matched better right? and have the ultras for the front 3. Later on moving to an transparent screen and replacing the center with a full ultra tower would be my goal so the front 3 match.

but I'm looking at it from a performance standpoint too.... wouldn't the prime towers be a better choice for this setup? over the ultra bookshelf...

 

[Todd Anderson]

To be completely honest, I'm not sure you'll hear a significant difference running those towers as smalls in the side and rear positions (given equal height/positioning). Those Bookshelf speakers are really great performers. I think the biggest change you could make to your current configuration would be selling the Center and replacing it with a Tower.

Now, if you're going to run side/surrounds as Large, then yes... you'd hear some more low-end impact. But the Bookshelf speakers are REALLY good. I was blown away by their 2-channel performance.

 

[Mark C Flick]

I agree with Todd. My opinion, I'd stick with the same line of speaker and same size drivers.

 

[Tony V.]

I also agree, no real benefit of going with towers all around. The sub still gets sent all the low end so towers vs bookshelves as long as they are the same won't be noticeable.

 

[Talley]

Well I suppose that it'd just be 1k to add two more ultra bookshelf speakers and another 1k to get the ultra tower but then I could sell my ultra center probably net 400 from that... only cost me 1600 to move to a 3 tower front and 7 speaker total would be a hard sell though since nobody wants just a center.

What you guys think for the ceiling atmos style speakers... you think simple prime satellites would be fine enough?... thats all I was planning on. I'd have to research it but not sure how much audio spectrum gets sent to those channels on various movie soundtracks.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Get the Prime Elevation... they are fantastic and come with special ceiling mount locks (upon request).

 

[Talley]

Basically the same as the satellite... I'd probably stick to the satellites because my room is a cathedral ceiling I'd have to work with and I would make my own mounting anyway. I try to keep all speakers the same distance to the listening position... just can't do my center right now until my room turns.

 

[Glenn S]

... I'd have to research it but not sure how much audio spectrum gets sent to those channels on various movie soundtracks.

Hey, I just posted a query concerning this matter.
From what I understand:
In earlier surround formats, the surround signal was limited (i.e. limited frequency response and limited output).
Current surround formats have lifted all surround signal limitations, so all speakers (including height ceiling speakers) can receive full range signals.

For movies and music it will be up to the sound engineer as to how much audio is sent to the listening area. I'm hoping that more and more full range audio will be used for surround speakers. If a helicopter is hovering above me, I want the full sound of that helicopter to come from the height speakers (in my system I would still have the ultra low frequencies reproduced by my separate subwoofers).

 

[Talley]

Thats what's needed.... data-bass has a thread going for audio spectrum print outs... but we need a real database for movies and have all of their movie spectrums analyzed on each channel to figure that out.

 

[Talley]

The other option is a full range speaker/sub combo for each channel... then a dedicated twin sub setup for just the LFE channels.

I mean... isn't that the right way?

 

[Talley]

unless you go with the golden ear triton reference for each channel.... but that would be hard to support those from the ceiling lol

 

[Glenn S]

The other option is a full range speaker/sub combo for each channel... then a dedicated twin sub setup for just the LFE channels.

I mean... isn't that the right way?

This would be great if ALL of the bass frequencies from ALL of the bass drivers will work together in the same polarity, but that's hard to do. Your front left speaker may play a 40hz signal by pushing the driver out and at the same time your LFE sub may be playing a 40hz signal by pulling the driver in, this would create a null output for that 40hz signal (I'm not sure using the terms push and pull are technically accurate, but I couldn't think of any other way to describe this situation). Yes there is a polarity switch on many subwoofers, but this doesn't align all frequencies together between different drivers. It may put 50hz in line while it throws 40hz out of line and vice versa if you flip the polarity switch the other direction. This is why I still use a separate equalize to adjust each frequency manually (and I do still use Audyssey).

 

[Talley]

phasing isn't about equalizing though... isn't it more about location of sub within the room.

You could say the same thing for all frequencies of a speaker.... they cancel out due to room interaction. This is where room treatment steps in. This summer I plan on building the rest of my QRD and plan on really trying to dial in my room better.

 

[Glenn S]

phasing isn't about equalizing though... isn't it more about location of sub within the room.

Unless I've misunderstood all my life, phasing is an electrical signal issue. One simple way of changing the phasing of a speaker is to switch the + and - wires on your front left speaker, now it will probably be "out of phase" with your front right speaker, one speaker will push out as the other speaker will pull in. I'm not sure if phasing can be adjusted or corrected with distance, maybe it can.

But how phasing can be adjusted with an equalizer is this:
-Let's say both subs are in phase at 50hz and they each add to the 50zh output. Then the 50hz sliders on both of the subs EQs stay neutral.
-But then at 40hz the subs are out of phase and their output is null (if each sub is played individually the the output is optimal, but played together their output is lowered because the phasing is working against each other). To fix this I lower the 40hz slider on one of the subs EQ, this lowers the output of that one sub at 40z, now I only hear the 40hz signal from that other sub.

 

[Talley]

thats not adjusting phase. if both subs are set to 0 they are equal phasing but nulls and peaks would occur at 1/4, half, 3/4 or full waves where the subs distance = frequency... again the room has the most effect on this in relationship to where the subs are placed. And yes you are correct.. you would equalize the subs in order to create a flat response over both subs but equalization should be a fine tune process and room placement of subs should be primary goal first. The more you manipulate the original signal the lower the quality you get and have potential to remove headroom capacity on amps.... you also also be surprised with moving a sub just 1 inch would do to room response.

 

[Glenn S]

thats not adjusting phase. if both subs are set to 0 they are equal phasing

I agree that I phrased it incorrectly by saying that I can fix the issue by adjusting the phase with an EQ (although adjusting the EQ does alter the phase), realistically I'm not correcting the phase or polarity of the 40hz signal, I am lowering the 40hz volume on one of the out-of-phase drivers so that they will not cancel each other out.

And...
just because the subs are set to 0 does not mean that they are in phase with each other.
Drivers being electrically out-of-phase with each other is a completely different situation than nulls and peaks created by location/distance/room response.
Go ahead and switch the + and - wires on one of your front speakers, then run Audyssey which should warn you that your speaker is out-of-phase or polarity is incorrect. Your speakers aren't out-of-phase because of location/distance, they are out-of-phase because they are receiving different electrical signals.

 

[Glenn S]

I think we got a bit off topic discussing what is phase, polarity, how it is corrected, and what causes it.
The original point is that no matter what (distance, nulls, peaks, electrical signal), having multiple bass drivers leads to more out-of-phase frequencies. Just because you have 80hz, 65hz, 50hz, and 30hz signals in phase, doen't mean that 75hz, 60hz, and 40hz are also in phase, they may be out-of-phase. Then if you correct those out-of-phase frequencies to become in phase, then the other frequencies will become out-of-phase.

Just because one frequency is in phase doesn't mean that all frequencies are in phase, and it can't all be corrected.
If you don't believe me please read the last paragraph of the first page of this article....
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/setting-subwoofer-phase-easy-way

 

[Matthew J Poes]

The other option is a full range speaker/sub combo for each channel... then a dedicated twin sub setup for just the LFE channels.

I mean... isn't that the right way?

Don't forget that bass is omnidirectional, especially in small rooms below Fs. There is no point in having speakers with significant bass output below 80hz that is sent in a discrete fashion. Realistically the ideal would be a bass manager that could take all the bass and optimally distribute it amongst the speakers. Having a rear surround play bass without aligning the bass to the other bass sources can lead to sub-optimal results. Another problem, which we have discussed in a different context before, is that the surrounds need to produce 102dbs to reach surround reference levels down to their lower operating range. Very few surround speakers can do that and realistically it's a problem for most large mains as well. It also places huge power demands on the system. You are unique in having serious dedicated power and could amp up sufficiently for this. Most people can't.

I actually plan to test this concept of "full range" surrounds in the coming months. I have four surrounds with 10" woofers in them that have significant LF output below 100hz. By remixing the bass and delaying it to the rear surrounds you can use them to cancel length modes, which could be a great option. What I am going to do is just a proof of concept as it is not feasible for any bass management system to do this with true surround material. I had thought it was possible with a MiniDsp but it appears I can't apply delay to an incoming signal, before it's remixed. This leaves me with computer software mixing as my only option or cascading dsp devices together.

 

[Talley]

JTR Neosis 215RT's are one speaker that can... I've determined that 5 of these full range speakers is really the only way moving forward for me to upgrade. Every speaker would run full range and they can 108db at 16hz... 117db at 20hz.

Just need $25k lol... oh not to forget way more power too

No need for any puny subs

 

[Talley]

3 - 215RT for the front mains and two 8HT for the surrounds... I'd eliminate the need for subs... sell my current dual sub/svs system for 4k and for about 7700 have a rock solid replacement.

Ya.. I think I figured out my upgrade path

 

[Matthew J Poes]

You still have the same bass management problem though. It is not ideal to use full range speakers that have discrete LF content.

 

[Talley]

You still have the same bass management problem though. It is not ideal to use full range speakers that have discrete LF content.

Have you seen the capability of those jtr's?

 

[Glenn S]

Bass management is a separate issue from speaker specs/capabilities.

 

[Talley]

Ok and why wouldn't the xmc-1 with dirac be able to handle this? You set the front 2 speakers to full... set the back to small... bass is routed from the backs to the front. LFE is then sent to front two mains. The only trick would be to use something like minidsp to send to the front 3

but using dirac/xmc-1 you still have bass management... the JTR speakers alone are more capable of low end then most subwoofers including the PB-16 ultra. and you have two...

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Bass management is a separate issue from speaker specs/capabilities.

I'm not sure you are understanding my point. I am saying that using full range speakers in which the bass frequencies are being discretely sent to each speaker based on how its encoded in the content is an improper use of LF sources in small rooms. It's not an ideal way to setup a system. That to do it right would require very flexible bass management. Otherwise you are better off not using full range mains and surrounds and using separate subwoofers throughout a room, which standard bass management can address.