New measurements have my curiosity circling around...

Sonnie

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I am scratching my head trying to figure out why I like these two measurements, although I learning a bit more about why I possibly might be preferring them.

The two responses were created with two completely different approaches/methods, but I am able to compare them nearly instantly with my usual favorites.

If you are up to it... I'd like to get your thoughts on why someone might like these vs a smoother response like I have generally felt sounded superior.

I'd also be interested if you see any major (glaring) differences between these two based on the .mdat file that should cause some differences in the sound.

You can download the .mdat file here: https://www.cedarcreekcinema.me/challenge/

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Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Not sure I get it. There isn’t going to be any audible difference between the two. But I get the feeling that’s not what you’re asking about?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 

Sonnie

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Not really, although there is an audible difference, ever so slightly when I switch back and forth.

But you are right... I more curious about what differences are underneath the measurements because they were created with two different systems.

I am also not 100% sure (I've got an idea) why this sounds better than my typical smooth top-end response curves. The top end here is anything but smooth.
 

jtalden

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If you are up to it... I'd like to get your thoughts on why someone might like these vs a smoother response like I have generally felt sounded superior.
EQ methodologies and house curves lead to clear differences in sound quality so there is no surprise there.

I'd also be interested if you see any major (glaring) differences between these two based on the .mdat file that should cause some differences in the sound.
I'm game, so will make some observations/guesses.
The SPL response of both measurements is very similar and suggests that the 2 measurements should sound the same. We also know however that there are several XO timing settings that can result in similar SPL responses. A SW group can also be setup in various ways to provide a similar SPL response. We also see that many people have indicated a strong preference for one of the options when they have evaluated them. I have sometime experienced this myself, but would not suggest that it is not my imagination as no controlled testing was done. So looking at these 2 measurements, what is different?

The first (blue) measurement appear to be with the SWs having a 180° phase setting (or inverted polarity) on some or all the SWs. The second (green) measurement appears to be with the SWs having a 0° phase setting on most or all the SWs. The result of this is:

The 2nd (green) measurement:
  • Has slightly less group delay at the very low frequencies.
  • Has a more consistent T60M across the bass range.
  • Has a little less deep bass SPL <17 Hz.
The 2nd (green) measurement also appears to have a smoother SPL response with 1/24 octave smoothing in several portions of mid and high frequencies. This may not be a related to the SW phase setting, but there is no clear indication of why this difference exists. I might think there is a difference in EQ methodology and that by itself would easily explain a preference for one or the other of these 2 measurements irrespective of the bass range differences.

The step response of the 1st (blue) measurement suggest a slightly cleaner handoff through the XO range.

The differences are subtle and would not seem to suggest a significant difference in sound, but if I need to guess which you prefer, I would pick the 2nd green measurement.

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Sonnie

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Good observations JT. I kept believing I was hearing a difference, and I was, but after an RTA comparison I can see why now, I don't think I had them level matched. I has separated the traces and must not have moved them back to where they were exactly. This is the first minute of a song comparing the two with the mic out to the side of my ear (still on the mic stand).

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One is simply a little than the other, but when I lower the volume on the RED trace before playing it... now I can hear any differences.

I'll take another measurement sweep later to clarify the level differences.

I also want to offer up a comparison of what I normally prefer and these newer preferences I seem to be liking better now. Then I'll explain the different approaches.
 

Sonnie

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The more I tinker with Dirac Live Bass Control, the more I think I don't like it. I believe I prefer to have all my subs function as one and only use one sub pre-out on the processor. I seem to be able to get a better response when working with all subs summed than I do with them separated.

I changed processors in the middle of this experiment, but I believe the end result will be the same.
 

jtalden

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Interesting, I only DIY as that is my interest so I have no personal experience with Dirac. In looking through data from other peoples multi sub setups it is easy to see that there are sometimes easy and sometimes difficult choices in choosing the SW and XO delays. Some setups have numerous settings that provide similarly good SPL results that are within reasonable delay timings for the SWs and XO. It would be difficult to say which one of them is the most correct from a technical perspective as there are tradeoffs involved. I would doubt that all the various automated routines would all resolve to the same settings in these cases. There are people that have taken the time to evaluate 2 or 3 of their good SPL setups in their rooms and still have a clear preference for one of them.
 

Sonnie

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Going back to my original curiosity... why do I like this response that is not so smooth? It actually sounds better than the target curves I (and several others) have come to appreciate.

These responses are created by 1: Home Audio Fidelity (Thierry), who created filters for the Convolution DSP within Roon, which does not make so drastic of an adjustment on the upper end... and 2: Dirac Live based on a target curve I created from the response of the Convolution filters. So I was able to effectively copy and possibly improve on the Convolution filters, based on what we see in the decay measurements, although it is not that noticeable between the two... both are very good.

HOWEVER... what I like even better is the Convolution filter that Thierry created that includes basic crosstalk corrections, which can't be measured. The filters he created for the response in the first post do not include the crosstalk corrections. He includes one set without and one set with. I am going to have him take it to the next level of his crosstalk filtering to see what it sounds like as well, which admittedly is typically only subtle, yet still supposedly improved. I'm curious enough to try it.

Perhaps... just perhaps, I now see why some enthusiasts prefer NOT to have Dirac correct anything over 500Hz.

One thing I thought interesting that Thierry also does is correct for reflections, although as previously stated, the differences between the two responses in the first post are insignificant to me.
 

jtalden

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I spent a lot of time on various measuring processes and EQ choices for the 200-20k Hz range. I have also evaluated a great many house curve adjustments and have finally convinced myself that further significant improvements are not possible within my current system.

The professional speaker designers seem to be uniting on good spinorama style measurements as the best design target. Several experts say that a well designed speaker cannot be improved by EQ above the room transition frequency. It is apparently the direct sound that we hear that provides the tonal quality for those mid and high frequencies. The room reflections are apparently adding ambiance. Your room may be creating irregularity in the LP SPL while the direct sound and listening window sound is much smoother. That could be a reason why the irregular SPL response you prefer sounds better - just speculating.

Many DIY hobbyist and most of the newer automated room EQ correction offerings are now DRC type systems and EQ the entire range. My initial DRC trials were disappointing, but I hope to spend more time on it. The DRC options are overwhelming and I am sure I will be able to at least match my current setup if not significantly improve on it.

I have no idea how to best deal with dipolar panel speaker as your ML ESL's. The ones I heard years ago sounded outstanding without any EQ above the transition range. I doubt we will see spinorama data on those.

The room, room treatment and speaker/LP positions are major factors, but many of us have limited ability to change those.

There is always plenty to learn.
 

Sonnie

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I've been doing a lot of research on different methods of EQ... Audiolense, Room Shaper, Acuratesound... as you say, there is a lot to learn. I'm chasing after it for now, not sure how long it will last.
 
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