Measuring From Listening Position Vs Nearfield

[Ian Eales]

I don't use Audiolense. I use REW and adjust miniDSP frequency response and time for coherence.
Subs have Anthem Room Correction built in. I let it do its worst and then integrate the woofers for best match at the LP

 

[Ofer]

I don't use Audiolense. I use REW and adjust miniDSP frequency response and time for coherence.
Subs have Anthem Room Correction built in. I let it do its worst and then integrate the woofers for best match at the LP

How do you adjust time using REW and miniDSP? you mean you add delay to each driver individually? How do you calculate the delay? do you use the time aligment tool in REW? I have the 4x10hd and it is pretty limited in the delay you can add.

 

[Ian Eales]

How do you adjust time using REW and miniDSP? you mean you add delay to each driver individually? How do you calculate the delay? do you use the time aligment tool in REW? I have the 4x10hd and it is pretty limited in the delay you can add.

I tried the 4x10HD for a while to overcome the poor remote tracking of 2x 2x4HD
In the 2x4HD, 80ms @ 0.01ms delay increments are possible, vs 9ms @ 0.01ms in the 4x10HD.
My subs are nearly coplanar with the LFT's so there is not a lot of shift necessary. I roll the bottom out of the woofers and let ARC handle the subs.

I built a workbook wherein I can enter the XYZ distances from the drivers to the LP and set these offsets as the starting values. The farthest driver, woofer in this case, has Zero delay. From then on, it's an iterative process of listening and tweaking along with REW measurements to see how the response is affected.

IMO, the 2x4HD is quite a bit more transparent than the 4x10HD.
Also, IMO, the miniDSP product line control and plug-in functionality is largely a joke.
I bought 3x WI-DG only to find they could corrupt the connected devices if more than one is used on the same network.

If you haven't read these miniDSP articles on using REW Measuring time delay for home theater with the UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 and REW and Time-aligning speaker drivers with UMIK-1 and UMIK-2, they are worth reading.

 

[jrobbins50]

I tried the 4x10HD for a while to overcome the poor remote tracking of 2x 2x4HD
In the 2x4HD, 80ms @ 0.01ms delay increments are possible, vs 9ms @ 0.01ms in the 4x10HD.
My subs are nearly coplanar with the LFT's so there is not a lot of shift necessary. I roll the bottom out of the woofers and let ARC handle the subs.

I built a workbook wherein I can enter the XYZ distances from the drivers to the LP and set these offsets as the starting values. The farthest driver, woofer in this case, has Zero delay. From then on, it's an iterative process of listening and tweaking along with REW measurements to see how the response is affected.

IMO, the 2x4HD is quite a bit more transparent than the 4x10HD.
Also, IMO, the miniDSP product line control and plug-in functionality is largely a joke.
I bought 3x WI-DG only to find they could corrupt the connected devices if more than one is used on the same network.

If you haven't read these miniDSP articles on using REW Measuring time delay for home theater with the UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 and REW and Time-aligning speaker drivers with UMIK-1 and UMIK-2, they are worth reading.

A plug then for Bernt’s Audiolense software (after all, this is an AL forum ). I have used REW, and as a freeware product, it is amazing and I know excellent results can come of it. But, AL is much easier to understand and use. I have a 5.2 system with new mains, center channel, surrounds and subs, and I’ve also just insulated the ceiling and firmed up the wall behind the subs with Sheetrock and green glue. With one UMIK-2 measurement location using eight sweeps of 5 seconds each, AL swiftly creates multichannel filters I can plug directly into HQPlayer, which I control through Roon. I just did that earlier this evening in under 20 minutes and it sounds terrific. I commend you to consider an investment in the AL product. JCR

 

[Ian Eales]

(after all, this is an AL forum )

which mentioned miniDSP and measurement positions in the first post, both of which I have a fair history.

I've looked at the AL et al spaces.

With a later career as embedded hardware and software engineer, NO computers in the HiFi
From an earlier career as a recording engineer and analog hardware engineer, REW w the miniDSP products meets the requirements of EQ, time and XO.
No other solution rang all the chimes.

 

[Ofer]

I tried the 4x10HD for a while to overcome the poor remote tracking of 2x 2x4HD
In the 2x4HD, 80ms @ 0.01ms delay increments are possible, vs 9ms @ 0.01ms in the 4x10HD.
My subs are nearly coplanar with the LFT's so there is not a lot of shift necessary. I roll the bottom out of the woofers and let ARC handle the subs.

I built a workbook wherein I can enter the XYZ distances from the drivers to the LP and set these offsets as the starting values. The farthest driver, woofer in this case, has Zero delay. From then on, it's an iterative process of listening and tweaking along with REW measurements to see how the response is affected.

IMO, the 2x4HD is quite a bit more transparent than the 4x10HD.
Also, IMO, the miniDSP product line control and plug-in functionality is largely a joke.
I bought 3x WI-DG only to find they could corrupt the connected devices if more than one is used on the same network.

If you haven't read these miniDSP articles on using REW Measuring time delay for home theater with the UMIK-1 or UMIK-2 and REW and Time-aligning speaker drivers with UMIK-1 and UMIK-2, they are worth reading.

I have read and used those articles and used them to align my drivers. Aligning the sub was more of a chanlange. If you diched the 4x10HD how do you control your 3-way active system? do you used more then one 2x4HDs? The limited delay made me place the sub pretty close to the speakers.
"IMO, the miniDSP product line control and plug-in functionality is largely a joke." I don't know about using several miniDSPs together but the one I have the plugin is preatty staight forward which I find an advantage.
Just out on curiousity why are you againstt adding/using a computer in HiFi? It gives much higher functionality and proccessing power. Part of the reason I am considering AL is that.

 

[Ofer]

A plug then for Bernt’s Audiolense software (after all, this is an AL forum ). I have used REW, and as a freeware product, it is amazing and I know excellent results can come of it. But, AL is much easier to understand and use. I have a 5.2 system with new mains, center channel, surrounds and subs, and I’ve also just insulated the ceiling and firmed up the wall behind the subs with Sheetrock and green glue. With one UMIK-2 measurement location using eight sweeps of 5 seconds each, AL swiftly creates multichannel filters I can plug directly into HQPlayer, which I control through Roon. I just did that earlier this evening in under 20 minutes and it sounds terrific. I commend you to consider an investment in the AL product. JCR

I find your comment about the ease of use surprising. I got the feeling that AL has a high learning curve. After all why so many users need Mitches help... The investment is considerable both the software and hardware that is needed.

 

[jrobbins50]

I find your comment about the ease of use surprising. I got the feeling that AL has a high learning curve. After all why so many users need Mitches help... The investment is considerable both the software and hardware that is needed.

I did engage Mitch when I first got AL and he taught me a lot about its use. Now, it’s just a breeze for me to engage with the software. JCR

 

[Ian Eales]

do you used more then one 2x4HDs?

yes, TWO 2x4HD. One per channel

"IMO, the miniDSP product line control and plug-in functionality is largely a joke." I don't know about using several miniDSPs together but the one I have the plugin is preatty staight forward which I find an advantage.

I wrote embedded software and Windoze applications to control the devices. Our devices connected via USB which has a 127 device limit. That one has to plug in, and then tell the miniDSP software to connect is strictly 1980's. Both the old and new plug-ins require WAY too much clicking to accomplish simple tasks. Idiotic dialog boxes that tell the user to connect if the cursor is left in the volume adjust when the unit is unplugged. Only one device at a time? Sheesh!

Normally one has to use a remote for about a decade to achieve the erratic performance miniDSP built in. It may have been the 4x10HD I received was defective, but with both the control knob and the remote, 1 increment in either direction gave between 0 and 1.5dB adjustment. The 2x4HDs regularly ignore a remote click, sometimes one, sometimes both. NONE of the other ½ dozen remotes ever fail to accomplish their task.

I can control every parameter on my subs from my phone with both graphic and numeric values. The miniDSP offering is worse than a joke. The increment is the same for -70 as +10. It's flat out dangerous as too close a finger over the screen can result in a FULL BLAST.

Just out on curiosity why are you against adding/using a computer in HiFi?

Decades of computer use wherein somebody's great idea kiboshed a perfectly functioning system. HiFi is my relaxation. Computers are stressors.

FWIW, REW can create filters that linearize FR, but I didn't care for the results.

My reticence on focusing on FR stems from main monitors with graphic EQ in recording studios. Measure FR was very good, but musicality suffered.

 

[Trdat]

And if I did decide to use Audiolense in the near field, probably not worrying about the room rather a correction that would emulate a correction based more similar to anechoic what would the procedure be? Exactly the same except put the microphone 10cm from speaker inbetween woofer and tweeter?

 

[Andrew Slater]

Actually, the fact I stated is very old news, and widely understood. I first learned about this problem over 30 yers ago working as a studio tech. A few years before, there had been a big thing of using 1/3 octave graphic equalizers to correct response in control rooms. The studios that tried this ended up taking out those equalizers after learning the hard way that they don't fix the room. Every so many years this "fix the room with EQ" snake oil gets re-sold with some new window dressing, and another generation of engineers and techs eventually learns the folly of it. One can correct for DRIVER response, which some of the better studio monitor products actually do, but not for the response of the ROOM. Room problems can only properly be fixed with proper acoustical treatment. Unfortunately, there is also a lot of snake oil out there in terms of acoustical treatment products, particularly when it comes to acoustical foams.

what if you “room” is a metal box and your sitting in the corner….. anything even an eq is a god send

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