MartinLogan Renaissance 15A vs. Revel PerformaBe F328Be

Sonnie

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Listening time... I already think I hear a significant difference in the amps.

Perhaps the Magtech have a little more air between the notes, and a larger soundstage... probably due to the regulated power supply being so efficient it makes it quieter between the notes... and expands the soundstage. :whistling:
 

RichB

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Listening time... I already think I hear a significant difference in the amps.

Perhaps the Magtech have a little more air between the notes, and a larger soundstage... probably due to the regulated power supply being so efficient it makes it quieter between the notes... and expands the soundstage. :whistling:
Perhaps, it is time for an ABX test :rubeyes:

- Rich
 

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Listening time... I already think I hear a significant difference in the amps.

Perhaps the Magtech have a little more air between the notes, and a larger soundstage... probably due to the regulated power supply being so efficient it makes it quieter between the notes... and expands the soundstage. :whistling:

Perhaps the Magtech is designed as a Power Paradigm Amp and is great at driving speakers that expect constant power regardless of their impedance like ESLs, magnetic planers and Horns... :T
 
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Sonnie

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I can't turn the SHD up more than about -15 on most songs... and it starts to hurt at -10 for sure. I'm listening comfortably at about -22.5 right now. Of course this after I've been jamming out pretty well.

If it's 95.8dB at -26... does that mean it's 111.8 at -10? No wonder it starts to hurt.

Good clean sounding amps like any other I've ever owned... and they definitely have plenty of gas for the 15A's.

I'm sure they'll sing a tune or two with the F328's as well.

Now listening to the demo disk that Roger sent me with the amps. I remember listening to this music in his room at RMAF and was super impressed with his speakers.
 

RichB

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I can't turn the SHD up more than about -15 on most songs... and it starts to hurt at -10 for sure. I'm listening comfortably at about -22.5 right now. Of course this after I've been jamming out pretty well.

If it's 95.8dB at -26... does that mean it's 111.8 at -10? No wonder it starts to hurt.

Good clean sounding amps like any other I've ever owned... and they definitely have plenty of gas for the 15A's.

I'm sure they'll sing a tune or two with the F328's as well.

Now listening to the demo disk that Roger sent me with the amps. I remember listening to this music in his room at RMAF and was super impressed with his speakers.

Yes, my little math experiment predicted the Magtech/15As could reach 113.5 dB before silently clipping. :)

- Rich
 

RichB

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Using Sonnies measurements and using Ohms law to compute the voltage gain for each speaker and amp the volume dBV levels that, in theory, could be obtained:

15A - 2 Ohm LoadWattsMax VoltageMax Gain dBV2.83V dbEst Max Vol
AHB2 Bridged
450​
26​
19.3​
91​
110.3​
Megtech
900​
36​
22.1​
91​
113.1​
328Be - 4 Ohm LoadWattsMax VoltageMax Gain dBV2.83V dbEst Max Vol
AHB2 Bridged
480​
43.8​
23.8​
93​
116.8​
Magtech
900​
60​
26.5​
93​
119.5​

Speakers may not be linear at high-volume and can have thermal compression so it is likely to be less.
The AHB2 may have some dynamic headroom but the clip lights discourage that.

The computed values are inline with @Sonnies measurement for the 15As driven by Magtech.
It is possible that that the AHB2 bridged going to supply much less voltage into 2 Ohms, published specs do not include 2 Ohms.

So I agree with @AJ Soundfield said, the AHB2 bridged is not rated into 2 Ohms, so it makes sense that it is not the amp to drive the 15As to the desired levels.
The AHB2 might perform as well or better in stereo mode since it has been reported to be stable to 1.8 Ohms.

The 328Bes are another matter, both the AHB2 bridged and the Magtech should be capable of driving the 328Bes sufficiently, loud with an additional 3 dB (from rated power) and possibly 6 dB (dynamic power) available to the Magtech.
It is also possible that 328Bes cannot be driven much louder by either amp. The max SPL is not quoted for most speakers and perhaps, for HT, 110 is sufficient. It is a more than I desire.

- Rich
 

Sonnie

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In most cases I'm at about 100dB SPL while listening... occasionally it will be less if I'm on the laptop while listening... and occasionally it is more depending on what I am listening to, and when testing speakers it will be higher on a more consistent basis. Last night I listened for quite a while at around 105dB.
 

RichB

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In most cases I'm at about 100dB SPL while listening... occasionally it will be less if I'm on the laptop while listening... and occasionally it is more depending on what I am listening to, and when testing speakers it will be higher on a more consistent basis. Last night I listened for quite a while at around 105dB.

Are you able to reach > 110 dB using the 328Bes with the AHB2 bridged?

- Rich
 

Sonnie

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107dB max with the AHB2... however, we can't rely on that number because that was listening loudness with subs. We would have to find max SPL without the subs... and also take into consideration distortion limits. We might do all that during the evaluation, although I don't know if I'll still have the AHB2's at that time, as I'm gonna need to collect some money for those to pay for the Sanders... I'm about broke buying all this stuff.
 

RichB

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107dB max with the AHB2... however, we can't rely on that number because that was listening loudness with subs. We would have to find max SPL without the subs... and also take into consideration distortion limits. We might do all that during the evaluation, although I don't know if I'll still have the AHB2's at that time, as I'm gonna need to collect some money for those to pay for the Sanders... I'm about broke buying all this stuff.

Yoda said:
Expensive toys, there are.
Careful with your budget, you must be.

- Rich
 

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Speakers may not be linear at high-volume and can have thermal compression so it is likely to be less.
These thermal compression issues are a phenomenon observed in voice coil driven cone speakers... Not an issue with electrostatic panels and magnetic planers including ribbons...

So I agree with @AJ Soundfield said, the AHB2 bridged is not rated into 2 Ohms, so it makes sense that it is not the amp to drive the 15As to the desired levels.

The AHB2 is a Voltage Paradigm Amp... Designed to map to a well behaved speaker impedance exactly opposite of an ESL... By the way, this is one of several reasons amps can sound different...

If one really wants to drive those ML 15a ESLs with the AHB2 or other Voltage Paradigm Amps without too much stress try a set of Zeros to better match the impedance...
 
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RichB

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Perhaps the Magtech is designed as a Power Paradigm Amp and is great at driving speakers that expect constant power regardless of their impedance like ESLs, magnetic planers and Horns... :T

I would state it differently since speakers are driven by voltage.
It is not that an amp is constant power but that it is load invariant, able to supply a lot of current to properly track the voltage amplification. When the power sags, the voltage cannot not be maintained either lowering the gain consistently or during peak requirements. Essentially, compressing.

Amplifiers rated and testing into 2 Ohm loads will be better able to handle it but, as can bee seen on many Stereophile 2.83 volt sweeps very few amps maintain the voltage into 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

The A21+: Parasound Halo A 21+ power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
41804


The JC1+: Parasound Halo JC 1+ monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
41805


Distortion is increased with frequency where negative feedback is less effective but also increases with more difficult loads:
41807


The Megtechs regulated power supply could/should do better. Maybe they should send one to Stereophile.

- Rich
 

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Sonnie

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I may be able to test these amps if all goes well... trying to workout the equipment now.
 

RichB

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Sonnie

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Yeah... they probably would have... as AJ had mentioned previously. I was looking at VTV model built here in the USA, but after talking with two different guys that build the Ncore amps... both seemed hesitate about selling them to me for the 15A's.
I'm telling you, you spooked those amp assemblers. :)
No one wants to see their brand traded for another, for whatever reasons. The Hypex are designed primarily for the pro market, 2 ohm operation/ratings are mundane and fully expected there.
Talk the the March guy, he builds speakers too. That might be a critical distinction, to understand both sides of the equation. I'm very clear on this, YMMV.
Or just enjoy the Magtechs and end the audiophile nervosa.

cheers
 

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I'm done with the amps for a while... happy... plenty of power... know they are doing their job, etc.
 

AJ Soundfield

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You almost sound convinced
 

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Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand

ddude003

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Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
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I'm done with the amps for a while... happy... plenty of power... know they are doing their job, etc.
MOAR POWER... :dumbcrazy:
 

RichB

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MOAR POWER... :dumbcrazy:

15A recommended power:
41819


I am not sure if you can blow these speakers like you can a tweeter/midrange, but the Martin Logan recommendations indicate there is a limit.
I cooked a Salon1 midrange, it can be done :p
SalonRight Dimple.JPG



- Rich
 

ddude003

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Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
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Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid 2xAsus1080ti GFX Audirvana Studio, Hang Loose Convolver, Pulsar Massive & 8200, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP-X700 /M Ultra HD 4K HDR & PS5
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Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
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Martin Logan Motion 4
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Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
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Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
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Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
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PrimaLuna, Lumin iApp, Samsung & Yamaha
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Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
15A recommended power:
View attachment 41819

I am not sure if you can blow these speakers like you can a tweeter/midrange, but the Martin Logan recommendations indicate there is a limit.
I cooked a Salon1 midrange, it can be done :p
View attachment 41821


- Rich

Hmm... Is that an aluminum cone? Is it coated with something or anodized? I wonder what paper or carbon fiber would have done?
 

RichB

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UPD-205
Front Speakers
Revel Salon2
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice2
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Revel Salon2
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Rythmik E22
Screen
LG C9
Remote Control
Pronto
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RPI
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Roon
Hmm... Is that an aluminum cone? Is it coated with something or anodized? I wonder what paper or carbon fiber would have done?
Titanium. If paper, who knows, fire :explode:

The electrostatic speakers look like radiators, so perhaps heat is not an issue.

- Rich
 

Sonnie

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Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
The electrostatic speakers look like radiators, so perhaps heat is not an issue.

- Rich
They are almost 360° air-cooled. :rolleyes:
 

Sonnie

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Alabama
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McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
FireCube for movies and Lenova Carbon X1 for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
So... the original thread title is...

MartinLogan Renaissance 15A vs. Revel PerformaBe F328Be

...and thus I can legitimately compare the two now that we have officially finished our evaluations. I'll repeat some of this in the evaluation thread, but this is more of a direct comparison here. I did not want to comment until Wayne and Dennis had time to listen and make their notes on the speakers we evaluated, of which I have NOT read their notes. Obviously I know a little bit about what they think of the speakers because of what we have to go thru to setup each speaker for evaluation. In the evaluation reports each speaker will have it's own thread and they will not be compared directly, although there could easily be mention of one of the other speakers in any of the speaker threads. I also wanted to wait until they got here so that we could all work together for the best placement of the speakers. It's been done and we have finished the official evals... just having more fun listening now.

As stated in my original first post, I wanted to give the Revels serious consideration for my room due to all the positive out there about them, and due to their wide dispersion characteristics and excellent off-axis response. Let me get it out of the way... I don't think they could ever come even remotely close to replacing any of the MartinLogan speakers I've had in my system. I'm probably going to get bashed, and I'll hear all kinds of excuses of what I didn't do right in evaluating these speakers, but frankly I don't care... it is what it is, and the Revels have not been able to compete with my 15A's from my perspective.

For those that don't have subs and might be considering the F328Be... they had no bass in my room when placed for the best imaging and soundstage, unless we placed them very close to the wall, and then the bass was just okay. If you have subs... probably not an issue. Otherwise the F328Be are very good speakers with subs. I personally thought they had very good imaging and a respectable soundstage, although not quite as pinpoint imaging and not as big of a soundstage as the 15A's.

The biggest issue we had with the F328 was placement. I've never known but just a few speakers that have been in my room that we've had placement issues with, and the F328's are by far the worst we've ever dealt with. I hate trying to find a happy medium between imaging and soundstage vs bass. Why can't we have both... or why can't speakers be easier to place... some are and some are not. The F328 is one of those difficult speakers in my room. I'm sure there are those that believe they have great imaging and soundstage and they had no issues placing them in their room - - good for them - - glad you did not have struggles, and I would love to hear your system to see if it sounds anything akin to my listening preferences. We did eventually find what I thought was a pretty good location for the imaging... although the center image was slightly fat (not offensive to me, but Wayne and Dennis were not happy with it), the off-center imaging was spot on for me. When we toed in the speakers to tighten up the center image to appease Wayne and Dennis, it started to smear the imaging on each side of center. A good example is the horn player in Cassandra Wilson's Strange Fruit. In one position her voice was a bit thick, but the horn player was dead on. When we tightened up her voice, the horn player would shift from just left of center and move farther left (where it is when I consider it spot on) as the horn got louder. Only a few other speakers have ever done this in my room, and it is truly aggravating and irritating to say the least. Ultimately we tried fifty-eleven different locations and toe-in angles (exhausting)... we worked harder on these speakers than any other speaker that's been in my room trying to get them dialed in, but we kept coming up just a bit shy. Keep in mind... we are extremely picky... much more so than what the average listener will likely be... we are looking for absolute perfection in placement. While in the one spot where I thought the imaging was satisfactory, despite the center image being just a little fat (again I was not offended by it), I enjoyed listening to the speakers, and could listen for hours on end very easily, so it wasn't all bad, just a lot of work to get there... and just a little short of perfection. I'm sure most listeners would be laughing at us about now if they heard these speakers in my room, and would claim they sound marvelous. Mind you... a "good" speaker is not "bad", it just may not be as good as others... and our definition of marvelous is very strict because we have compared so many different speakers in my room over the last 10-12 years.

In a nutshell... the biggest differences between the two are that the 15A's have been easier to setup in my room and can be dialed in from several locations and angles with less of a difference in sound. The 15A's have a wider and taller soundstage, contributed to their huge panel size and design, and they have better pinpoint imaging across the soundstage, with better depth acuity. I feel much more immersed in the music with the 15A's than with the F328's. They also absolutely spank the F328's in bass response if you don't have room for subs.

I'll be keeping the 15A's... next?
 
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