MartinLogan Renaissance 15A vs. Revel PerformaBe F328Be

Sonnie

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Listening time... I already think I hear a significant difference in the amps.

Perhaps the Magtech have a little more air between the notes, and a larger soundstage... probably due to the regulated power supply being so efficient it makes it quieter between the notes... and expands the soundstage. :whistling:
 

RichB

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Listening time... I already think I hear a significant difference in the amps.

Perhaps the Magtech have a little more air between the notes, and a larger soundstage... probably due to the regulated power supply being so efficient it makes it quieter between the notes... and expands the soundstage. :whistling:
Perhaps, it is time for an ABX test :rubeyes:

- Rich
 

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Listening time... I already think I hear a significant difference in the amps.

Perhaps the Magtech have a little more air between the notes, and a larger soundstage... probably due to the regulated power supply being so efficient it makes it quieter between the notes... and expands the soundstage. :whistling:
Perhaps the Magtech is designed as a Power Paradigm Amp and is great at driving speakers that expect constant power regardless of their impedance like ESLs, magnetic planers and Horns... :T
 
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Sonnie

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I can't turn the SHD up more than about -15 on most songs... and it starts to hurt at -10 for sure. I'm listening comfortably at about -22.5 right now. Of course this after I've been jamming out pretty well.

If it's 95.8dB at -26... does that mean it's 111.8 at -10? No wonder it starts to hurt.

Good clean sounding amps like any other I've ever owned... and they definitely have plenty of gas for the 15A's.

I'm sure they'll sing a tune or two with the F328's as well.

Now listening to the demo disk that Roger sent me with the amps. I remember listening to this music in his room at RMAF and was super impressed with his speakers.
 

RichB

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I can't turn the SHD up more than about -15 on most songs... and it starts to hurt at -10 for sure. I'm listening comfortably at about -22.5 right now. Of course this after I've been jamming out pretty well.

If it's 95.8dB at -26... does that mean it's 111.8 at -10? No wonder it starts to hurt.

Good clean sounding amps like any other I've ever owned... and they definitely have plenty of gas for the 15A's.

I'm sure they'll sing a tune or two with the F328's as well.

Now listening to the demo disk that Roger sent me with the amps. I remember listening to this music in his room at RMAF and was super impressed with his speakers.
Yes, my little math experiment predicted the Magtech/15As could reach 113.5 dB before silently clipping. :)

- Rich
 

RichB

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Using Sonnies measurements and using Ohms law to compute the voltage gain for each speaker and amp the volume dBV levels that, in theory, could be obtained:

15A - 2 Ohm LoadWattsMax VoltageMax Gain dBV2.83V dbEst Max Vol
AHB2 Bridged
450​
26​
19.3​
91​
110.3​
Megtech
900​
36​
22.1​
91​
113.1​
328Be - 4 Ohm LoadWattsMax VoltageMax Gain dBV2.83V dbEst Max Vol
AHB2 Bridged
480​
43.8​
23.8​
93​
116.8​
Magtech
900​
60​
26.5​
93​
119.5​

Speakers may not be linear at high-volume and can have thermal compression so it is likely to be less.
The AHB2 may have some dynamic headroom but the clip lights discourage that.

The computed values are inline with @Sonnies measurement for the 15As driven by Magtech.
It is possible that that the AHB2 bridged going to supply much less voltage into 2 Ohms, published specs do not include 2 Ohms.

So I agree with @AJ Soundfield said, the AHB2 bridged is not rated into 2 Ohms, so it makes sense that it is not the amp to drive the 15As to the desired levels.
The AHB2 might perform as well or better in stereo mode since it has been reported to be stable to 1.8 Ohms.

The 328Bes are another matter, both the AHB2 bridged and the Magtech should be capable of driving the 328Bes sufficiently, loud with an additional 3 dB (from rated power) and possibly 6 dB (dynamic power) available to the Magtech.
It is also possible that 328Bes cannot be driven much louder by either amp. The max SPL is not quoted for most speakers and perhaps, for HT, 110 is sufficient. It is a more than I desire.

- Rich
 

Sonnie

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In most cases I'm at about 100dB SPL while listening... occasionally it will be less if I'm on the laptop while listening... and occasionally it is more depending on what I am listening to, and when testing speakers it will be higher on a more consistent basis. Last night I listened for quite a while at around 105dB.
 

RichB

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In most cases I'm at about 100dB SPL while listening... occasionally it will be less if I'm on the laptop while listening... and occasionally it is more depending on what I am listening to, and when testing speakers it will be higher on a more consistent basis. Last night I listened for quite a while at around 105dB.
Are you able to reach > 110 dB using the 328Bes with the AHB2 bridged?

- Rich
 

Sonnie

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107dB max with the AHB2... however, we can't rely on that number because that was listening loudness with subs. We would have to find max SPL without the subs... and also take into consideration distortion limits. We might do all that during the evaluation, although I don't know if I'll still have the AHB2's at that time, as I'm gonna need to collect some money for those to pay for the Sanders... I'm about broke buying all this stuff.
 

RichB

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107dB max with the AHB2... however, we can't rely on that number because that was listening loudness with subs. We would have to find max SPL without the subs... and also take into consideration distortion limits. We might do all that during the evaluation, although I don't know if I'll still have the AHB2's at that time, as I'm gonna need to collect some money for those to pay for the Sanders... I'm about broke buying all this stuff.
Yoda said:
Expensive toys, there are.
Careful with your budget, you must be.
- Rich
 

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Speakers may not be linear at high-volume and can have thermal compression so it is likely to be less.
These thermal compression issues are a phenomenon observed in voice coil driven cone speakers... Not an issue with electrostatic panels and magnetic planers including ribbons...

So I agree with @AJ Soundfield said, the AHB2 bridged is not rated into 2 Ohms, so it makes sense that it is not the amp to drive the 15As to the desired levels.
The AHB2 is a Voltage Paradigm Amp... Designed to map to a well behaved speaker impedance exactly opposite of an ESL... By the way, this is one of several reasons amps can sound different...

If one really wants to drive those ML 15a ESLs with the AHB2 or other Voltage Paradigm Amps without too much stress try a set of Zeros to better match the impedance...
 
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RichB

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Perhaps the Magtech is designed as a Power Paradigm Amp and is great at driving speakers that expect constant power regardless of their impedance like ESLs, magnetic planers and Horns... :T
I would state it differently since speakers are driven by voltage.
It is not that an amp is constant power but that it is load invariant, able to supply a lot of current to properly track the voltage amplification. When the power sags, the voltage cannot not be maintained either lowering the gain consistently or during peak requirements. Essentially, compressing.

Amplifiers rated and testing into 2 Ohm loads will be better able to handle it but, as can bee seen on many Stereophile 2.83 volt sweeps very few amps maintain the voltage into 8, 4, and 2 ohms.

The A21+: Parasound Halo A 21+ power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
41804


The JC1+: Parasound Halo JC 1+ monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
41805


Distortion is increased with frequency where negative feedback is less effective but also increases with more difficult loads:
41807


The Megtechs regulated power supply could/should do better. Maybe they should send one to Stereophile.

- Rich
 

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Sonnie

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I may be able to test these amps if all goes well... trying to workout the equipment now.
 

RichB

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Sonnie

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AJ Soundfield

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Yeah... they probably would have... as AJ had mentioned previously. I was looking at VTV model built here in the USA, but after talking with two different guys that build the Ncore amps... both seemed hesitate about selling them to me for the 15A's.
I'm telling you, you spooked those amp assemblers. :)
No one wants to see their brand traded for another, for whatever reasons. The Hypex are designed primarily for the pro market, 2 ohm operation/ratings are mundane and fully expected there.
Talk the the March guy, he builds speakers too. That might be a critical distinction, to understand both sides of the equation. I'm very clear on this, YMMV.
Or just enjoy the Magtechs and end the audiophile nervosa.

cheers
 

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I'm done with the amps for a while... happy... plenty of power... know they are doing their job, etc.
 

AJ Soundfield

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You almost sound convinced
 

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Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Sony TV KDL50W700B
Remote Control
Lumin iApp...
Streaming Equipment
LuminU1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
I'm done with the amps for a while... happy... plenty of power... know they are doing their job, etc.
MOAR POWER... :dumbcrazy:
 

RichB

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
85
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
RMC-1
Main Amp
AHB2
Additional Amp
AHB2
Other Amp
AHB2
Computer Audio
Roon
DAC
UPD-205
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
UPD-205
Front Speakers
Revel Salon2
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice2
Surround Speakers
Revel Salon2
Subwoofers
Rythmik E22
Screen
LG C9
Remote Control
Pronto
Streaming Equipment
RPI
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon
MOAR POWER... :dumbcrazy:
15A recommended power:
41819


I am not sure if you can blow these speakers like you can a tweeter/midrange, but the Martin Logan recommendations indicate there is a limit.
I cooked a Salon1 midrange, it can be done :p
SalonRight Dimple.JPG



- Rich
 

ddude003

Active Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
552
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid build & Audirvana+
DAC
Chord Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
LG Blue-Ray
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Sony TV KDL50W700B
Remote Control
Lumin iApp...
Streaming Equipment
LuminU1 Mini Streamer/Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon & QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & BaseTraps...
15A recommended power:
View attachment 41819

I am not sure if you can blow these speakers like you can a tweeter/midrange, but the Martin Logan recommendations indicate there is a limit.
I cooked a Salon1 midrange, it can be done :p
View attachment 41821


- Rich
Hmm... Is that an aluminum cone? Is it coated with something or anodized? I wonder what paper or carbon fiber would have done?
 

RichB

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2021
Messages
85
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
RMC-1
Main Amp
AHB2
Additional Amp
AHB2
Other Amp
AHB2
Computer Audio
Roon
DAC
UPD-205
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
UPD-205
Front Speakers
Revel Salon2
Center Channel Speaker
Revel Voice2
Surround Speakers
Revel Salon2
Subwoofers
Rythmik E22
Screen
LG C9
Remote Control
Pronto
Streaming Equipment
RPI
Streaming Subscriptions
Roon
Hmm... Is that an aluminum cone? Is it coated with something or anodized? I wonder what paper or carbon fiber would have done?
Titanium. If paper, who knows, fire :explode:

The electrostatic speakers look like radiators, so perhaps heat is not an issue.

- Rich
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Thread Starter
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
3,987
Location
Alabama
My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Monolith HTP-1 Processor (Movies and Surround)
Main Amp
Benchmark Media AHB2 Monoblocks
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-Eleven
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
DAC
miniDSP SHD (Two-Channel Music Only)
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for movies only)
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Renaissance ESL 15A
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Surround Speakers
MartinLogan EFX Surrounds
Surround Back Speakers
MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL
Front Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Rear Height Speakers
MartinLogan EM-IC
Subwoofers
SVS SB16-Ultra x4 (music) + PB16-Ultra x2 (movies)
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-NX9
Screen
Elite 128" Screen
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
Roku Ultra
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Kaleidescape Strato S 12TB
The electrostatic speakers look like radiators, so perhaps heat is not an issue.

- Rich
They are almost 360° air-cooled. :rolleyes:
 
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