Improving measurements with a new mic

[jrobbins50]

This note is a repeat to @Mitchco, but perhaps others, including Bernt, may have some suggestions.

I got my new Motu Ultralite-mk5 today. I’m unable to map the channels properly. Chs 1 and 2 are the main outs so mapping starts with Ch 3 -10. (I have a 5.1.2 setup.)

Ch 3 FL plays FL yay!)
Ch 4 FR plays C
Ch 5 C plays C (yay!)
Ch 6 Sub plays BL
Ch 7 BL also plays BL
Ch 8 BR plays out TFL
Ch 9 TFL also plays TFL
Ch 10 TFR is silent

Of course, Ch 0 and Ch 1 are silent if I try mapping to those, as expected, as are any channels above 10.

I’m stumped. I also have an older Motu 828mk3, the FireWire version. It maps all channels 3-10 without incident. Why don’t I use it for measuring, then, you may ask? Because I use no preamp and thus need to attenuate some channels to avoid insertion loss. The old 828mk3 has no output trims. The new mk5 does.

Any ideas, crew? JCR

 

[whoareyou]

I have a ultralite mk-5 and map for a 5.2 configuration,
Why don't you just leave channel 0 for FL, 1 FR, 2 C, etc.?
Maybe I'm not following something, but with exception of mapping channel 6 to my 2nd subwoofer, that's all I need do.

 

[jrobbins50]

@whoareyou, thanks. I set channels 3-10 as mono outputs, but I don’t know how to set channels 1&2 to mono — they seem to be fixed as stereo. I need to trim the FL and FR outputs by -7dB for measuring to fairly equalize the volume level among my speaker array. I suppose that since the trim is the same for both of those channels, stereo for channels 1&2 would perhaps not be an issue.

Of course, this doesn’t explain why I am getting the outputs of one channel coming out of more than one channel.

I assume you are using the Motu Gen 5 ASIO setting for both playback and recording in AL?

Could you be so kind as to show me a snapshot of your home, device, input and output screens on the mk5 when you are doing measurements? Thanks. JCR

 

[whoareyou]

Yes, I'm using Motu ASIO for playback and recording.
I really don't touch the Motu settings via the cuemix app. Main thing for me was configuring it so volume is applied to all outputs I am using. Other than that I probably changed some of the cuemix windows settings, but those have no impact on the ASIO driver. Hope this helps in some way.

As far as the mapping results you are seeing, it does seem strange and I can't explain it.

 

[whoareyou]

Just rereading your post, a couple of questions. Where in the UI do you configure this as mono?

Also, can't you just set the output levels individually for channel 1 & 2 in the output trim section?

 

[jrobbins50]

Going backwards:

1. Yes, I had missed that point thinking that being paired together, there was only one trim for the two channels. This is why I asked Motu support how to create mono channels. I now see that channels 1 and 2 can be trimmed separately although part of a single stereo mix.

2. To your question re creating mono channels. See the attached video that Motu kindly sent to me. There seems to be no way to decouple channels 1&2, but that now seems irrelevant since they can be separately trimmed. Apparently, I didn’t even need to create the mono channels for channels 3-10.

3. Thanks for sharing your mk5 screenshots. I actually think I’ve now discovered the issue. The Motu drivers are not properly loaded on my PC. See screenshot. Really bizarre: I then turned to my laptop, installed everything and got the same weird sonic result. What was throwing me is that the Motu Gen 5 ASIO device properly appears as a supported playback and recording duo on AL. However, the only active sound from the PC is the PC’s Realtek driver. Device Manager even reports that the Notu driver is working properly and yet events shows it’s not loading. No wonder multiple channels are coming out of a single speaker — all eight channels have to fit into two (or something like that). @Mitchco, I’ll keep you posted.

I truly can’t fix the bad driver install on either Windows 11 computer after several uninstalls and reinstalls. I’m hoping Motu technical support can get me running tomorrow. JCR

 

[whoareyou]

Thanks for video. I just updated my driver this week, and MOTU device info looks similar (see attached), so I'm not sure what's up with the event messaging. Just to rule out issue with new driver, I ran quick sanity check in AL and speaker verification / measurements seem to work as expected. Will be interesting to see what MOTU says about this.

After new driver install, one difference I noticed in AL is the automatic population for the output device setting. Before updating the MOTU driver, the AL interface would remember the ASIO settings used when bringing up "new measurement" dialog i.e.the MOTU driver would be automatically selected for me since that was last ASIO device I used.

Now, for whatever reason the driver has to be selected each time I take a new measurement.
So question for @juicehifi is should the driver info be persisted between saved measurements?

 

[jrobbins50]

Well, that’s odd you get the same event error message. But, to be clear, in Windows sound properties, you see the Motu for both playback and recording and can select those devices as your defaults, yes? In my case, the Motu does NOT show up in Windows at all, on either PC I’ve installed the drivers.

Motu technical support is calling me at noon my time, so I’ll report back on what I learn — hopefully with a fix! JCR

 

[whoareyou]

Well, that’s odd you get the same event error message. But, to be clear, in Windows sound properties, you see the Motu for both playback and recording and can select those devices as your defaults, yes? In my case, the Motu does NOT show up in Windows at all, on either PC I’ve installed the drivers.

Motu technical support is calling me at noon my time, so I’ll report back on what I learn — hopefully with a fix! JCR

I can look later, but hopefully you'll have answer from support before then

Having said that, I seem to remember that the windows options for input/output must be selected n Cuemix or the Motu will not show up in the Windows driver's list. Pretty sure this happened to me, and had me a bit perplexed until I figured it out. I'm also pretty certain that once I figured it out, I decided to leave them disabled because I didn't want to accidentally have system sounds play over my device at same time I was using ASIO. I found it will play stuff from the windows drivers at same time as ASIO is being output.

 

[jrobbins50]

Super helpful — checking off the Windows options for input/output on the Motu got the device showing up in Windows. However, all Motu outputs are showing up as Line In pairs — like Main Out 1-2 — and selecting properties / advanced for that playback output shows only 2 channels, not eight. See screenshots.

Motu technical then tried using Voicemeeter to route the mk5 through the 8X8 matrix therein and selecting Voicemeeter ASIO in AL. Same weird results.

So, if you could show me your Windows sound properties if you have eight channels showing there, I’d like to share with Motu technical. Thanks. JCR

 

[whoareyou]

I'm not at machine at moment, but I looked at it earlier on today, and I know it's same behavior on my machine that only channel pairs are available. Their WASAPI driver doesn't seem to support multichannel. I don't know if previous version supported multichannel or not as I've always used ASIO..

Seems like MOTU should know if multichannel is supported with their WASAPI window's driver.

 

[jrobbins50]

Yes, Motu suggests Voicemeeter to run multichannel, but we are getting the same effect with that, too. Are you using your Motu mk5 to measure six or eight channels, or just two? If you are successfully measuring more than two channels and had to nothing to get that to happen, then I’m confused why my Windows 11 PC won’t do the same. We rolled back to an earlier Motu driver, but that didn’t help, either. JCR

 

[whoareyou]

It's 7 channels, but I'm simply using the ASIO driver. In AL, I just specify the MOTU ASIO driver for input and output
I don't configure anything in windows sound panel. ASIO bypasses all of that stuff.
Are you needing to do something differently in your setup ?

 

[jrobbins50]

No, I pick the Motu Gen 5 ASIO as well in AL for playback and recording, but nothing will map the outputs properly. And I reconfigured my system for measuring so each Motu output goes straight to an amp and from there to a speaker, with no switch or preamp in between. BL and BR still come out of BL and TFR and TFL still come out of TFL. It is as though the channels are being mixed together, and yet in the mk5, they are not. Even playing the channels out directly through Roon — playing an 8-speaker channel announcement — gets multiple channels playing out through a single speaker. And yet the amity meters show only one channel playing out at a time. It’s beyond perplexing. JCR

 

[whoareyou]

Yeah, all that behavior is truly bizarre.

Do you still have the mk-5 configured per that attached video?
Perhaps there is factory reset that can/should be tried to rule that configuration change out as having caused the weirdness?

 

[jrobbins50]

A good idea. I can save the current settings and reset to factory defaults. I can always load the saved settings if required. I’ll give it a try. JCR

 

[jrobbins50]

OK, the factory reset was the winner. Leaving all channels as stereo mix, trimming the volume levels on several of the channels and using the Motu Gen 5 ASIO for playback and recording. I couldn't start with channels 1/2, but using 3-10, I got three back-to-back measurements with the iSEMcon microphone with exactly the same timings for each of the eight channels. Since I pass everything through HQPlayer, and it allows setting a channel offset, this will work fine for me. I never got these kinds of result using the UMIK microphones. I still have a center channel hum but indeed it didn't affect the measurements, as they all came in with Excellent Dynamic Range in AL. Thanks very much for the coaching! JCR

 

[whoareyou]

Good deal! And it's pretty nice to be able to get consistent measurements. I too was amazed when I first started measuring.

But, are you still having problems with trying to use 1/2, or you just want to use 3 - 10? If it won't measure starting with 1/2, that does seem kind of oddand I've never experienced anything like that with my mk5. Do you think there could be some kind of issue with your unit if 1/2 aren't accessible?

 

[jrobbins50]

OK, the Motu technical team showed me what was the issue with channels 1 and 2. Those channels are tied, by default, into the monitoring feature of the mk5. And, by default, the monitoring level is set at -20dB. So, bumping the monitor on the home page back to 0dB brought channels 1 and 2 back to expected volume levels. I was then easily able to replicate my AL channels 2-9 measurements from last night, using AL channels 0-7. See screenshots.

And, getting back to the true purpose of this thread, you can see how well a good condenser measurement microphone and an audio interface with a single internal clock for A-to-D and D-to-A can really perform. 10 second sweeps at 48K with a 4096 buffer and not a single stutter. Such a change from the frustration of using the UMIK microphones over USB! JCR