Hearing loss and DACs

[Coy Ramsey]

Cheap Audio Man did a comparison of a $900 amp/DAC vs a $130 amp/DAC recently. Watch his YouTube video and decide for yourself if making a change does any good. And keep in mind that he does this as a hobby/business so, I assume, he has some listening skills that most of us do not.

 

[Jimmymac]

Cheap Audio Man did a comparison of a $900 amp/DAC vs a $130 amp/DAC recently. Watch his YouTube video and decide for yourself if making a change does any good. And keep in mind that he does this as a hobby/business so, I assume, he has some listening skills that most of us do not.

i watch him often and want to note 3 points. 1. He really doesn’t tell us much about the DACs used in each. Just that they sounded similar as he discussed the amps. 2. Note his posting on the Denafrips Ares II. He says this is the most impactful piece if ea that he has ever owned. He made a similar statement in a DAC comparison video. 3. He makes a LOT of videos where just about everything is rated as amazing. I like him and even made some purchases based on his information, but I am not sure this helps me when combined with his Denafrips rating. Thank you for pointing this out though.
Note: To those recommending I get a DAC with EQ - where did you find one? Would adding an EQ to what I have now accomplish the same thing?

 

[JStewart]

Would adding an EQ to what I have now accomplish the same thing?

Yes, but in order for someone to suggest something that will work, they would need to know what you have and how it’s connected. Also what sources you have.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Note: To those recommending I get a DAC with EQ - where did you find one?

Most all AVRs, or standalone DAC specific:
minidsp 2x4hd $300
minidsp flex $500
RME ADI-2 $1200
Weiss DAC502 $12800, etc
All have remotes/presets and I either own or have installed in customer systems where extensive controlled valid listening tests were done.
That means the potential "fixes" include highly variable program material, not just fixed hearing and room/speaker woes. None can fix audiophile disorder, which creates all types of nonsensical beliefs. Ok, maybe the Wei$$....

Would adding an EQ to what I have now accomplish the same thing?

Depends on what type of "EQ", though all will results in real audible changes vs purely imaginary ones created by uncontrolled "listening",
Best EQ is done digitally, so it makes most sense to have within DAC.

 

[ddude003]

Most software players/streamers will either have a builtin EQ capability or will allow you to add an EQ plug-in... A plug-in is additional software module(s)... So players like Roon and Foobar2000 have built in EQ while Audirvana and others will accept EQ as well as other FX plug-ins... Maybe the Amazon app has EQ built in??? As @JStewart suggests, maybe you could tell us what player you use on your pc and the what's and how's of your system...

 

[Jimmymac]

Thank you for your responses. My system today is anchored by vintage Klipschorn speaker that I recapped. My power source has been a Yaqin tube Mc 13t amp that I am stripping down and rebuilding (I hope) and in the interim I am using a Aiyana A07:class D amp with updated Sparks’s op-amps. I stream Amazon Music Hd from an HD desktop through a Topping E30. I use no tone controls as none of my integrated amps have them. I have maturation through the era of radios and records only to 8rack (smart enough to have never owned one) reel to reels (2 and 4 channel) turntables from Garrard, Dual, Technics and B&0 and welcomed the clickless pop less cd’s like the second coming. I will never go back to records, no matter what, even though I am aware of how much money people are willing to spend on DACs to recreate the sine wave a $100 turntable provided somewhere in those clicks and pops. I prefer streaming music to buying CDs now due to the cost and inventory. I create playlist and retreat to my music room to enjoy good music on as good a system as I can enjoy. The speakers stay. The amp may change if my rebuild experiment doesn’t work, but it will be a reasonably priced amp without Bluetooth and with remote (at 77 I hate getting up and down to change sound levels). I may go to a streamer one day if the rumor that the computer DAC is never really out of the signal path even when being bypassed by USB is true. I will always use a separate rather than built in DAC. I will always buy to please my ears only, I have no gang of audiophiles to impress. I have no way to supplement my income from Miliatary retirement and SS and a wife that is 17 years younger than me that I plan for hurt to be comfortable with our savings as when I go, so does retirement pay. This gratis information is provided to provide insight into my thinking about how much I am willing to justify spending on a new DAC so the recommendations to rotate through multi-thousand dollar units till I find one I like will cease. I am a fixed income guy who loves music that is trying to maximize my enjoyment without getting into spending a lot of money for a tiny, perhaps even imaginary, improvement. Ok, my DAC is not great on the you tube circuit. I think I would chose the Denafrips Ares II if I could spend that much knowing it would be worth the full double price of a SMSL D300or three times the price of a Topping E50 or six times the price os a Schitt Modi 3. And the Denagrips doesn’t have a remote, much less a eq.
So that’s it. I have a few other superfluous items, I even built Some of those fantastic speakers using exciters and insulation panels (you have to try that to believe it-less than $20 each for speakers that can blow half the bookshelf speakers on the market away). My goal remains to SEE if I can add to my enjoyment by upgrading my DAC given my hearing loss. I do wear hearing aids but they are to help me understand human voices in a noisy environmen, not to extend my audible range.

 

[ddude003]

I am still unclear what software player application you are using on your pc to send the Amazon HD streaming music data to your DAC... I am suggesting you add EQ capability to that player application... It may already exist within its preferences... Or possibly add EQ software to your Operating System... Windows??? How about you Google "Equalizer APO" and see if that is something you could use... I am pretty sure it is free...

 

[Jimmymac]

i have the standard Windows Media Player, but that doesn’t mean anything as the usb connection to the DAC bypasses the internal sound board and, apparently any porgram that is associated with it. I looked at the Equalizer APO ant says right off that it is not for USB outputs. I looked some other apps and same problem. I will look into An outboard eq once I solve my DAC dilemma.
I feel like a guy asking got a beer and you guys keep sending out the sommelier.

 

[Soffer]

I am 60 with hearing loss as well. Good sound reproduction exists below 8khz so I believe yes, a decent dac should be considered.

I too wondered if a better dac would be of benefit for my system. I purchased a premium boutique dac last year and found out, yes, it does make a difference.

DAC's are a strange thing. I do believe a higher quality dac 'can' sound better, but if you are starting off with a decent one, the betterment might be minimal.

You only live once. Like me, you are 60 or over. If you can afford it... You won't know until you try.

 

[Soffer]

Oh, and the EQ recommendation. If you have the time and the drive, purchase an audio microphone and download the free software REW. It provides EQ features on steroids and allows you to really adjust your sound while correcting some room acoustic issues. There is a learning curve but there is also some automation provided. This approach has provided me quite a bit of fun.

 

[Jimmymac]

I am 60 with hearing loss as well. Good sound reproduction exists below 8khz so I believe yes, a decent dac should be considered.

I too wondered if a better dac would be of benefit for my system. I purchased a premium boutique dac last year and found out, yes, it does make a difference.

DAC's are a strange thing. I do believe a higher quality dac 'can' sound better, but if you are starting off with a decent one, the betterment might be minimal.

You only live once. Like me, you are 60 or over. If you can afford it... You won't know until you try.

Good to know! Did you start with the “boutique” DAC or work up to it? Do you find the improvement most noticeable at high or low volumes? I ask because I was experimenting this morning and played a couple of Ennio Morricone songs as played by large orchestras (The Extasy of Gold” and ”Tme Man With The Harmonica” at a pretty loud level and wondered how I could ever hope to improve what I was hearing enough to spend more money. Then I switched to ballad type music by the likes of Frank Sinatra, Art Garfunkel and Cat Stevens and it was horrible at that level (I wanted more mellow) so I turned it down but felt it was too flat and that is my hope - to get the enjoyment at the mellow level that I do at loud.

 

[Jimmymac]

Oh, and the EQ recommendation. If you have the time and the drive, purchase an audio microphone and download the free software REW. It provides EQ features on steroids and allows you to really adjust your sound while correcting some room acoustic issues. There is a learning curve but there is also some automation provided. This approach has provided me quite a bit of fun.

 

[Jimmymac]

I have seen that and will give it a try. How is your DAC connected to your streamer (computer?) as mine can only connect with USB and that bypasses the internal sound card.

 

[Soffer]

In my opinion, the sensitivity of your speakers will dictate how capable your system is at presenting detail at low volumes. It's not necessarily your DAC. Your DAC will help shape the sounds coming from your system and may help in even further detail.

My DAC is connected via SPDIF not USB. Not that it matters, its just a communication protocol between the two devices. Some say one is better than the other, and even others will insist its the other way around. Taking one side or the other on these sites is just asking for trouble.

 

[Mark W]

...my hearing and my high frequency hearing peaks around 8kz. ...My question is if I would enjoy a good DAC with my hearing or would it be a waste of money?

You have not provided enough information about your hearing and the non-dac parts of your system to give you an accurate answer to your question.

Regarding your hearing, if you are married it is likely that even in the old days of telephone sound quality earlier in your life, you might have been able to tell in less than the first word when a caller speaks if it is your wife. You might even be able to tell what kind of mood she was in.

The FR of those phones IIRC was around 300Hz to 3kHz. And they had fairly high distortion. So how is it possible you could tell so much about a caller, based on such poor measurements of the telephone system?

The answer is that hearing is not just about FR, steady-state HD, SINAD, etc. Those things are fairly easy to measure so they have become standard 'figures of merit' in the industry. OTOH professional designers of dacs, of delta-sigma modulators, etc., know of more specialized measurements. Even for linear amplifiers there are what Bob Cordell has described as 'Advanced distortion' mechanisms in a dedicated chapter of his book on power amplifier design. Most people who believe AP measurements tell the whole story are not familiar with advanced distortion mechanisms and measurement techniques.

Moving along to the subject of audiometric testing of humans, psychoacoustics, thresholds of hearing, auditory scene analysis, etc., people who study such things in depth well understand there is still much we don't know about human hearing, especially the brain's role in the processing of sound.

For such reasons, nobody can tell you whether or not you will hear improved SQ from a more expensive dac, such as D90SE. Some people will hear a real, non-imaginary difference and other people won't. For yourself in particular there is only one way for you know what your experience will be. Try it and see. Give it a few days of run time, and longer if possible so you can give your brain time to learn to hear what it will sound like to you over the longer term. If not satisfied, return it. Only you can can do this.

 

[Viabcroce]

A better DAC is not only a more extended freq response, so it might always be worth updating specially if you find one that best complements your current system/room.
Having said this, frequencies are not only perceived with ears. When it comes to high and very high ones a number of structures in our head/face serve the purpose to register them, and it has been seen that our brain easily responds to music contents at 50 kHz (the highest harmonics of a trumpet for example).
So my opinion would be that it's always worth listening to the best possible audio system in the best possible room

HTH

 

[Frank PALM]

I have high freq hearing loss (>10k) and tinnitus. Recently got hearing aids and it restored what I was missing which was astounding... like getting prescription eye glasses for the first time. My high end system sounds very differently with the hearing aids on...lots more treble. Takes a bit of getting use to. Since my system is active and DSP controlled I will try to equalize the output to match the audiogram and not wear the hearing aids. Can't see listening to a $42K system with hearing aids in my ears. Will let you know what happens.

 

[Viabcroce]

I have high freq hearing loss (>10k) and tinnitus. Recently got hearing aids and it restored what I was missing which was astounding... like getting prescription eye glasses for the first time. My high end system sounds very differently with the hearing aids on...lots more treble. Takes a bit of getting use to. Since my system is active and DSP controlled I will try to equalize the output to match the audiogram and not wear the hearing aids. Can't see listening to a $42K system with hearing aids in my ears. Will let you know what happens.

If you really succeeded in linearising the room's response for your hearing profile it would IMO give you a much better sound: I strongly doubt that a hearing aid system, as good and expensive as it can be, can be as audiophile as a 40k audio system. The ones I've seen around can sound at most like a good transistor radio... not to mention the crossfeed, that is likely altered by the presence of the device(s) in the ear channel(s).
Let us know what you find!

 

[Viabcroce]

the usb connection to the DAC bypasses the internal sound board and, apparently any porgram that is associated with it

Except for the USB driver, for sure. And anyway the computer's USB card will play its role, with its amount of jitter, nose, mains distortion etc.

My DAC is connected via SPDIF not USB. Not that it matters, its just a communication protocol between the two devices. Some say one is better than the other, and even others will insist its the other way around. Taking one side or the other on these sites is just asking for trouble.

I agree, hard to generalise. They might have got different specs (jitter, noise and the like) in a given implementation tho and, generally speaking, different performances (in most pieces of hw I am aware of the USB is able to play higher freq rates for example, both for PCM and DSD).

 

[Mark W]

A properly designed dac using galvanically isolated Asynchronous USB is as good as it gets. Bit perfect, extremely low phase noise, etc.

To get the same performance with SPDIF is more difficult, it requires FIFO buffering at the dac end. Native DSD is not possible. DoP encoded DSD can work at DSD256 (often a sweet spot) when transmitted over 384kHz PCM. Unfortunately that is too fast for SPDIF.

 

[bssmusic]

I have been a music lover for over 60 years. My military career offered me the chance to try out a lot equipment and I even sold top end equipment when I retired. My career also impacted my hearing and my high frequency hearing peaks around 8kz. Music can still sound great even with that handicap. My question is if I would enjoy a good DAC with my hearing or would it be a waste of money? I have the small Topping but it does not do the job that some of the more expensive and better chipped DACs can do. I seek advice before I spend my money.

Hello Jimmymac,
maybe my post comes a bit late, but I am the same age and have the same problem: 8kHz and 10 kHz. I have very good experiences with the apt from Douk Audio, which is intended as headphone amp, but has also excellent line outputs, the sound is markably better then my Cambridge Audio CD and even my Sony SACD. It can handle optical, SPDIF , blutooth and USB, and last but not least, the price is only about $100

 

[Jimmymac]

I have high freq hearing loss (>10k) and tinnitus. Recently got hearing aids and it restored what I was missing which was astounding... like getting prescription eye glasses for the first time. My high end system sounds very differently with the hearing aids on...lots more treble. Takes a bit of getting use to. Since my system is active and DSP controlled I will try to equalize the output to match the audiogram and not wear the hearing aids. Can't see listening to a $42K system with hearing aids in my ears. Will let you know what happens.

Frank, I too wear hearing aids and NEVER wear them when listening to music. They are designed to help you hear the human voice through ambient noise, not to extend your hearable frequency range. The do help with tv programs, but I rely on SAP. But, they absolutely ruin music. Even in the car!

 

[Jimmymac]

Hello Jimmymac,
maybe my post comes a bit late, but I am the same age and have the same problem: 8kHz and 10 kHz. I have very good experiences with the apt from Douk Audio, which is intended as headphone amp, but has also excellent line outputs, the sound is markably better then my Cambridge Audio CD and even my Sony SACD. It can handle optical, SPDIF , blutooth and USB, and last but not least, the price is only about $100

I’m sorry bssmusic, but I am not sure which Douk Audio model you are referring to. I would like to see what you are recommending.

 

[Tim Hector]

This is an older thread. I just came across it and thought I would chime in. I have had tinnitus for over 15 years. My hearing loss is really in high frequency only. For me, when my equipment got good enough, I heard more differences in dacs. Be careful everyone, you ca really throw alot of money at gear and get nothing out of it. I would recommend to see if there is an audio club in your area. Hopefully members will let you try or do some short term equipment trading. If not, look for a website that offers trades or returns. Assuming that you have been using standard over sampling dacs, I would recommend that you try a decent R2R dac if your budget allows. Once you get to the middle price points, I believe that you will find some differences and be able to judge if they are worth your money, time and effort. I hope this helps, Tim