Demastering your music

[Chris A]

@Leonard Caillouet
Perhaps you should hear the technique applied? It's really not as complicated as you have implied above, and certainly much more successful, IMHO.

I believe that I said that no house curves should be used in the demastering process. That's just added confusion. The objective of the process described here is to eliminate the need for such curves. If you want (or need, as the case may be with your loudspeakers) to use such "house curves" after demastering, that's entirely up to you. I find that demastering using flat response is the answer. Otherwise...there are no standards for anybody to agree to...right? Everyone understands flat response, but anything else...probably not...

Chris

 

[Chris A]

Okay... so now I a totally confused.

You are asking good questions. Perhaps if we step back and define our terms, then it may become clearer. There are at least three terms that I can immediately think of:

1) Remastering: The is done commercially and informally by others using calibrated audio studios so that the results can be shared among the rank-and-file.

2) Personal remastering: this is done for a personally owned system (and no others) that is targeted only for that one system. The tastes of the owner are impressed into the resulting music tracks, and are not bound by any external references and standards. It replaces the former practices of using EQ boxes for each album, and setting up the sliders (usually graphic equalizers) using notes gleaned from prior efforts.

3) Demastering: a process whereby the original mastering EQ and other "commercialization" practices are significantly removed or de-emphasized from the music tracks to the extent possible ( including clipping reconstruction and additional sub-120 Hz noise removal that was never removed from the first commercial releases, but rather masked by using bass attenuation), to restore them to a condition that is much closer to that which was recorded by the musicians before any "enhancements" were added in a mixing or mastering studio.

The term "demastering" of course has decreased clarity of meaning for music genres that have been recorded in multi-track fashion (musicians all in separate rooms, usually playing at different times and listening through headphones) and that the first audition of the composition is after it has been processed by a mixing board. While there are still some techniques that can be used from demastering to yield a more natural sounding result, the exact meaning of demastering is more difficult to agree to.

The demastering process assumes that some reference to an external standard (i.e., flat frequency response, etc.) so that the tracks can be used on more than one resulting system without also having to deconvolve the demastering system's idiosyncrasies from the result--to the maximum extent.

Chris

 

[Sonnie]

I think between you and Leonard it is at least clearer.

I believe that those using house curves now are fine to continue using it, unless demastering is boosting the low end above what has been recorded AFTER 1991 or so (whenever bass attenuation ceased to be an issue). I use somewhat of a house curve on current music that doesn't need demastering, so I think I will be fine.

I have TONS of old CD's... I started collecting them when they started making them, so I have quite a few from the late 80's.

Let me try a few and see what happens... although it will be a while before I get a chance to do it... got a full plate right now.

 

[Chris A]

I should add that there is something different about demastering from remastering:

Demastering uses certain signal processing plots and techniques to reveal the effects of mastering EQ and other compression/limiting processes in order to apply inverse filters to arrive at its results.

 

[Chris A]

Let me try a few and see what happens... although it will be a while before I get a chance to do it... got a full plate right now.

Clearly, I understand. I really recommend listening to an already demastered CD in the mean time. I recommend Steely Dan's Gaucho, perhaps Joni Mitchell's Blue or Miles of Aisles, one of Nora Jones' first three CDs, Brian Bromberg's Wood, Natalie Merchant's Tigerlily, John Coltrane's Blue Train...or one of the perhaps 1000 other albums that I've already demastered (and an album that you already own) to hear the difference.

Shoot me a "conversation" (PM) and I can access you to any albums you are interested in.

Chris

 

[Todd Anderson]

I'm super interested in a Tigerlilly comparison... that's one CD that sounds like it want's be be vibrant and full, but ends up sounding rather flat and unexciting.

 

[leecreek]

Sounds like a lot of manipulation to me. It is enough for me to bust vinyl and track it. Had a web site bustedvinyl a while back. Took it down as was too expensive. Now I just do it for folks that bring the records to me and pick them up. Shipping costs were enormous.

 

[Chris A]

Just as an aside on that album (Tigerlily):

I first listened to it last fall (yes...I basically was head-down for ~25 years raising a family...) when I bought it used on Amazon Marketplace. I demastered it before listening to the complete album, then sat down and had a good listen.

I'm not a lyrics kind of guy...as they apparently exist, but I read about the story of where the track "Beloved Wife" came from: Merchant's grandfather apparently died a couple of days after his wife died in the 1980s, and the experience of watching his grief end his life, too apparently caused his granddaughter to write the song.

After demastering, I can say that particular song and its lyrics can be quite powerful, having known others that have also experienced the same situation.

I've listened to that album over 40 times since last fall...if that's any indication. Highly recommended.

Chris

 

[Todd Anderson]

Just as an aside on that album (Tigerlily):

I first listened to it last fall (yes...I basically was head-down for ~25 years raising a family...) when I bought it used on Amazon Marketplace. I demastered it before listening to the complete album, then sat down and had a good listen.

I'm not a lyrics kind of guy...as they apparently exist, but I read about the story of where the track "Beloved Wife" came from: Merchant's grandfather apparently died a couple of days after his wife died in the 1980s, and the experience of watching his grief end his life, too apparently caused his granddaughter to write the song.

After demastering, I can say that particular song and its lyrics can be quite powerful, having known others that have also experienced the same situation.

I've listened to that album over 40 times since last fall...if that's any indication. Highly recommended.

Chris

I know that song well... but not that back story.

Man.. that just gave me chills reading that!

 

[Todd Anderson]

Sounds like a lot of manipulation to me. It is enough for me to bust vinyl and track it. Had a web site bustedvinyl a while back. Took it down as was too expensive. Now I just do it for folks that bring the records to me and pick them up. Shipping costs were enormous.

You mean ripping vinyl to digital?

 

[Tony V.]

All I really seeing here is something thats been made to sound way more complicated than it needs to be.
I understand the principle your going for here Chris but all your really doing is first making sure that the system being used to listen on is EQed flat and then your taking the music thats mastered poorly and putting it through software thats applying an EQ curve similar to a house curve and then saving that as the new music file.

Its not much different than someone adding loudness (on old systems) or an Audyssey Loudness curve or outboard digital EQ with different presets when playing those "flat sounding" CDs from the 80s

 

[leecreek]

You mean ripping vinyl to digital?

I RIP CD's and I bust vinyl. Have just called tape digitizing.....Did 58 albums last winter and working my way thru more cassettes..25 more.

 

[Chris A]

putting it through software thats applying an EQ curve similar to a house curve

This part is not correct...

 

[Todd Anderson]

I RIP CD's and I bust vinyl. Have just called tape digitizing.....Did 58 albums last winter and working my way thru more cassettes..25 more.

Huh... didn't know the distinction. In that case, I've busted some vinyl too! ;-)

 

[Leonard Caillouet]

How about posting a few before and after clips of maybe 15 seconds each that demonstrate what you accomplish with this process?

 

[AudiocRaver]

Have to agree with Leonard. The biggest variable is probably the Mastering Engineers original decision of what the "right amount of bass" was. What is RIGHT?

 

[Chris A]

How about posting a few before and after clips of maybe 15 seconds each that demonstrate what you accomplish with this process?

Let me get this straight: you're now demanding that I do more work and expose myself to litigation so that you're going to relegate a total of 30 seconds to considering the technique? Interesting.

It actually sounds like you're not truly interested, but curiously, you're taking the time to comment in this thread. You're rejecting my previous offer--which is much more effective in hearing the differences.

It seems as if I'm playing apologetics on this new forum...something that I find a bit hard to understand given the current situation. I see only "staff" responding here, which to me means that you're attempting to launch the site. I initially felt was a good cause to try to support with a subject that I've found is worthy of a audio enthusiast's time and energy, because of the potential to significantly change the listening experience and connection to the music.

I was afraid that this would turn out to be another chore rather than what it has become for me: catharsis. I've personally spent years of having to listen to the effects of poor mastering on the music that I've acquired, but now I don't have to spend another minute listening to those effects. That's something that I believe has real value. Unfortunately, that notion isn't apparently shared here.

I fear that I've wasted my time in assembling the two tutorials above, providing available examples for those truly willing to try, and answering questions. But questioning the entire concept without any actual listening time or effort in some responses here isn't really something that I relish doing again and again. I suppose the Part 3 of the tutorials isn't really worthy of effort to complete. That's unfortunate. That's where the real meat of the technique is.

Have a good day. Hope things go well for you.

Chris

 

[Sonnie]

Don't give up on us Chris... I have your samples and plan to give them a listen. If Leonard is interested, he can shoot you a PM and request the samples as well. No need to post them here in the forum publicly. I understand how that could be a risk.

This is something, as I have already mentioned previously, that we would like to consider as an item in our Download section. However, we do want to make sure it's at a point where everyone can understand it and not be confused with the process... and that it is a valid process.

Are we all a little bit reluctant.. well of course... and rightfully so. Since the inception of CD no one else has come along with the idea of "demastering" that we've ever heard of. It's no doubt a bit strange that only "one" individual has ever thought of such and presented it publicly, so please be patient with us as we investigate and inquire.

While most of us are staff, we are still people, and members and AV enthusiasts. If this goes to our Download section with our blessings, there will be a lot more than staff downloading it, that I can assure you.

 

[Sonnie]

BTW... Leonard's post was not "demanding"... it was a request with a question mark at the end. Sorry you interpreted incorrectly.

 

[Peter Loeser]

Chris - There is definitely a genuine interest here, and your time is valuable to us. I can only really speak for myself but this is somewhat of a new concept and I think the learning curve is causing some of us to hesitate until we fully understand the scope of the process. I fear you may be interpreting curiosity as criticism.

Anybody willing to give this a shot? I've used Audacity and I'm willing to try, problem is all my gear and CDs are packed until the house is done. I'd have to compare on cheap headphones. Still willing to try it on something though.

 

[Tony V.]

Yes Chris, I am in no way discrediting your method I just want to know that this is not more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Sonnie]

Chris has sent me some samples... as soon as I have time, I plan to listen and will at least try it out.

 

[AudiocRaver]

Let me get this straight: you're now demanding that I do more work and expose myself to litigation so that you're going to relegate a total of 30 seconds to considering the technique? Interesting.

Chris,

Absolutely DO NOT do this.

• It would be illegal.
• I am confident it was not Leonard's intention to send you on a wild goose chase. But, unless it would be of personal interest and enjoyment for you to do so, it would not be an appropriate use of your time.

 

[billrobbo]

I find this an interesting approach, years ago I almost purchased a 1/3 octave graphic equaliser because of the differences in recordings. In fact a lot of "Golden Ears", back then, could tell what studio an album had been mixed in due to the differences in their reference speakers.
I find some of Bruce Springsteen's early albums lacking in the low end as well as Leonard Cohen's so I have been having a play around with this and on the pc it definitely sounds better. (EQ only at the moment)

Here is LC's classic "Famous Blue Raincoat"
Just lifting the bass has given it a richer sound and I also played with the hole in the 500 - 1500 Hz area.
The top end though from 9kHz and up is almost non-existent.

 

[AudiocRaver]

For me personally, there are so many albums and tracks that sound great on a good system that I just avoid the ones that do not, and don't really miss them. If there was a favorite album that needed demastering, I might give it a try.

The technique sure has merit. It sounds like a more in-depth version of one used back in the ??-80s-?? to restore early recordings to full fidelity, although in that case it was not bad mastering at fault, but limited fidelity of the original recording signal path.

It sounds complicated on the surface, but like many such techniques, once you take a few hours to get it set up and ready to fly through the steps and practice it a few times, it probably becomes almost second nature.

Thank you for sharing the info, Chris, and for all the time answering our questions.