Boutique brands, are they really worth it?

[Travis Ballstadt]

The problem I see with this is that boutique brands are rarely ever affordable to people with limited budgets so not really true. And I dont think that they "have higher sound quality" compared to the mid to higher end receivers available for less cost.

In addition to what Matthew stated, I can also say that I went from a $1500 Sony ES AVR to a $1300 Marantz AVR to a $1300 Emotiva Processor/Amp combo and the sound improved dramatically at each step. Then another great leap when I upgraded the processor to the XMC-1.

I especially can't agree enough with Matthew's point regarding the misleading amplifier ratings.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I think a big challenge for small companies is having sufficient software developers to keep up with the changing requirements to incorporate new codecs. I can't say more than this, but I know why there aren't more ATMOS processors and why a number of great companies stopped making surround processors. Based on what I've learned, we won't likely see that trend change and its really unfortunate and unfair.

 

[Tony V.]

I can agree that noise floor is important to keep as low as possible, my old Onkyo 805 was as quiet as I could want and so is my new Onkyo (I have to turn up the volume to well over 0db before I can hear any hiss or sound from my speakers and thats putting my ear right up to them) I wonder if some of the noise is due to bad/dirty incoming power? maybe the Boutique brands filter that a little better?

 

[JBrax]

Should you hear any hiss? I turned my Marantz up to 0db and absolutely no hiss.

 

[Tony V.]

At 0db Ive got my system playing at well above reference (my preference) so really loud . At reference on my volume is -10db and I hear nothing

 

[JBrax]

Mine is setup for reference at 0db and that’s rarely the volume level when watching movies. No hiss, hum, or unwanted sound. As for the boutique brands I’m content with my Marantz but at the time it was their top of the line model. I’ll be sticking with it until something comes out that I’ve gotta have. I don’t see any upgrades for quite some time. Maybe the Dirac offerings will be more plentiful or something even better is out.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I can agree that noise floor is important to keep as low as possible, my old Onkyo 805 was as quiet as I could want and so is my new Onkyo (I have to turn up the volume to well over 0db before I can hear any hiss or sound from my speakers and thats putting my ear right up to them) I wonder if some of the noise is due to bad/dirty incoming power? maybe the Boutique brands filter that a little better?

The Hiss in the onkyo is only on the line level outputs. The amps are silent. I actually suspect their may be noise gates built into receivers to artificially lower the noise. The reason I say that (and my sampling is small) is that when playing around with some unusual digital dsp I was at times sending a very small and quiet signal to the receiver which should have been inaudible and I noticed that the hiss suddenly started coming from all channels, just like I hear out the mains (which have their own amp and run off the line out). On my pioneer, it only hisses when my TV’s optical out is connected, but the analogue our of the tv is noise free. I doubt there is a difference and suspect instead that a noise gate is being triggered due to some noise in the digital line.

In any case, no you shouldn’t hear noise but I do frequently. I also use unusually sensitive speakers, even more so than the Klipsch that @JBrax uses, so it may be that I’m picking up small hiss more readily. I really don’t have an answer.

 

[Todd Anderson]

I think you need to be selective with boutique brands. Some offer incredible bang for the buck, giving access to tech that would cost significantly more on larger brands. In general, I fully support them... but, they do seem to have longer lags between model turn over (which, Tony, to your point means they might fall slightly behind on new HDMI tech).

The move toward modular systems has definitely helped, however. If that kind of a platform can be designed to offer faster updates to hardware... whole new ballgame!

 

[Tony V.]

I also use unusually sensitive speakers, even more so than the Klipsch that @JBrax uses, so it may be that I’m picking up small hiss more readily.

My EVs are 96db so crazy efficient
DACs are getting better and better and my old Onkyo had (at the time) the very best Burr brown available. my new 920 uses a "premium quality DAC from Asahi Kasei" not sure if they are good or not.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

My EVs are 96db so crazy efficient
DACs are getting better and better and my old Onkyo had (at the time) the very best Burr brown available. my new 920 uses a "premium quality DAC from Asahi Kasei" not sure if they are good or not.

AKM makes awesome dacs. Depends on the model of course, but I would take them over most others. As with all of the companies now, there is a huge range of DAC's within their premium line. The best are called Velvet sound and the best is the Verita AK4497, with 128DB's of dynamic range. It as the ESS Sabre top DAC are as good as it gets and the closest to realizing more than 20 bits of resolution. My guess is that you have the AK445x series which is the premium multi-channel dac. It's the bottom of the line in the Velvet sound range with "just" 115db's of dynamic range, but it is still a premium dac and is better than most of what was available 10 years ago or more.

Anymore receivers aren't coming with top of the line DAC's, and I think its because the best DAC's are really being designed for ultimate performance gear like studio equipment and audiophile 2 channel. The multichannel HT oriented DAC's are not as good, but are so much better than what was available that I think they just don't care. I've noticed a sudden switch with Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, and Pioneer that the DAC chip is suddenly a secret. This is my guess, why advertise that you are using the bottom of the line DAC. The average consumer won't get that its still a premium quality DAC and better than anything from before.

I believe your Onkyo is using the new Pioneer digital switching amplifiers. I think its actually a pretty premium product inside. From a technical standpoint it may not reach the best available, but a lot better than what was available and probably covering 99% of what's audible.

The only thing Onkyo needs to stop doing, as does Pioneer, Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha, is providing misleading amplifier specs. The problem recently got A LOT worse. Audioholics has been writing about it and calling attention to it like crazy. What I've heard is that now that these amplifiers are using switching supplies (which are really undersized for the need) and the total number of amp channels has basically doubled from what was once common, they can't produce enough current to put out much power. Many premium 11 channel amplifiers are being tested at like 40 watts RMS at .1% distortion into 8 ohms ACD. Reduce it to 7 channels and its like 60 watts. Do 1 channel and you might get 80 watts. Into 6ohms and 10% distortion and suddenly its 150 watts. They have even swayed from the full bandwidth test to get those numbers, often citing it at 1khz only instead of full bandwidth (as required by law). The average consumer doesn't understand any of this.

Another very dishonest practice, but for which there isn't good laws to address, is using theoretical measurements instead of actual measurements. A number of companies indicate channel separation, THD+N, and Dynamic range/Signal to Noise ratio's based on the theoretical best of the parts, typically that of the DAC chip itself. In practice the limitations of the board design, passive parts, and analogue stage cause the performance to be MUCH worse. I see people on forums talk about how the technical performance of cheap receivers today is equal to the theoretical maximum and thus they have perfect sound. Not true at all. While they are tons better than in the past, those specs are fairytales. The true measured performance of modern receivers are, for the most part (Some are a lot better than others) well below the specs of the chips being used. There are in fact high end products that achieve these numbers, but they aren't consumer grade receivers. The new Emotiva XMR-1 receiver is the only receiver I'm aware of with actual measured performance approaching true state of the art. It's also $5000.

One reason why I like these boutique companies and am OK with the higher prices is the greater honesty in specs. NAD, Arcam, Emotiva, Outlaw, Parasound, etc. all provide pretty good value compared to true premium products while offering real performance gains over brands like Onkyo, Sony, Yamaha, Marantz, etc. I'm not saying these brands are bad or that these differences are even obviously audibly better, just that there are in fact true differences that justify the cost premium.

 

[Tony V.]

The 920 uses the AK4490 (Front L/R) and AK4458 (Other Channels) (had to do some deep digging to find that LOL)
I agree those 1Khz tests to give ratings are the dumbest readings as they are truly meaningless.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

The 920 uses the AK4388 DAC (had to do some deep digging to find that LOL)
I agree those 1Khz tests to give ratings are the dumbest readings as they are truly meaningless.

Well I don't really keep up on the chips so I only know that the current AKM's are 445 series. I'm guessing the 438X series is one or two generations ago. Looking it up, that appears to be a lowly (I'm being sarcastic) 24 bit dac and has 106db's of dynamic range. While still very respectable, goes to show the advancements in just a few years.

 

[Tony V.]

Actually I updated the last post as I was wrong on the DACs The 920 uses the AK4490 (Front L/R) and AK4458 (Other Channels)

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Actually I updated the last post as I was wrong on the DACs The 920 uses the AK4490 (Front L/R) and AK4458 (Other Channels)

Ah yes, then the 4490 is a pretty state of the art dac. It's ~2 levels below the Verita DAC. It's capable of 120db's of dynamic range, but that is actually more limited in practice by its noise performance. Once you account for its noise performance its around 113db's and the 4458 is 107db's (115 Dynamic range however). That is pretty state of the art for sure.

I wonder if the Integra line or higher end Onkyo models move to the higher end AKM dac's?

Going back to the amplifier issue, I really am hopeful that NAD switched to Hypex modules, specifically to the ones with built in power supplies. If every amplifier has its own supply then the only thing that could effect ACD would be wall current. It also would improve channel separation a little (though the volume controls are really the problem at this point). If they could do that and not raise the prices, that would give them the best thing going. I don't see other brands doing that any time soon as it isn't in their current parts bin, so it's a harder switch. However, since it is now possible to create an amplifier and power supply that can do 150 watts into 8 ohms that fits on a business card, I do think others should at least consider the option.

https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/ncore_mp/nc122mp/Documentation/NC122MP_02xx.pdf
That's 125 watts per channel, 2 channels, its 3" by 7" roughly. It's performance is about as good as it gets.

 

[Tony V.]

Ya, wall current is a limiting factor as is the current power supplies they use. Many power supplies are way to small to drive the amps ACD

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Ya, wall current is a limiting factor as is the current power supplies they use. Many power supplies are way to small to drive the amps ACD

So I looked into this more and it seems that Onkyos reporting as of today (as well as Pioneer) is now in compliance with FTC. Apparently the 1khz bit, which is a problem, was a modification to the FTC and is acceptable. Apparently CEDIA successfully lobbied to change the requirements suggesting that full bandwidth testing was too onerous. At least that’s the gist of what I read, it is possible I have misunderstood. I sent a message to the guy from the FTC that told me he reported these companies to get an update.

What is curious to me is that some of the products that have corrected specs don’t appear to have much lower ratings. The story I was given suggested these products were tested WELL below spec using the same FTC method by a third party. I guess we will see what happens when specs start getting tested in the various magazines.

 

[tesseract]

I waited a while before purchasing an XMC-1 for Atmos (and/or DTX:X) to be available. It always seemed right around the corner. I am 5.1 here anyway and 90% of my listening is 2 channel so I went ahead and bit the bullet. The low noise floor seems to make the sound subjectively better than the Sherwood R-972 (and all other amps I have owned) and Dirac Live is integrated better than the wonky Trinnov arrangement the Newcastle used and is available for use in 2 channel, too.

Overall, I feel the XMC-1 is one of the best audio purchases I have ever made, but I do not need the latest immersion codecs, so YMMV.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

Overall, I feel the XMC-1 is one of the best audio purchases I have ever made, but I do not need the latest immersion codecs, so YMMV.

I did the same thing, for the same reasons. And I agree. I'm 7.1, but no real Atmos plans, and still using my Panasonic AE-8000 projector, so no 4K needs (yet). I purchased last summer, and emailed them earlier this month to put me at the BOTTOM of the list for the new HDMI board, as I know there are others who actually need the board.

The 40% upgrade cards also changed the landscape quite dramatically for many. I didn't have one of those, but I think I got the better deal when I was enrolled in the "Upgrade for Life" program when I bought my UMC-200 - getting 25% off up to two of each processor they ever release. That's something Marantz, Sony, Pioneer, Yamaha et al will doubtfully ever do....

 

[dc2bluelight]

Ya, wall current is a limiting factor as is the current power supplies they use. Many power supplies are way to small to drive the amps ACD

Not sure that "wall current" is typically an issue, though. If you consider a home with 200A service, a 100' 2/0 drop from the pole, a total house load at the full 200A (hope not!!!), a 75' run from the breaker box to the outlet in question, and it's a 20A circuit pulling the full 20A, the total drop in voltage is a hair over 5%. Normal line voltage could swing more than that, but really shouldn't. Any power supply must be designed for full output power with at least +/-10% line voltage variation before it drops out of regulation. Couple all of that with the fact that full power demands from an amplifier output are very short momentary peaks that are spread in time (by filtering and regulation) before they get reflected back to the power line, and you wouldn't ever see a full 1000W peak demand at the power line, and a 20A circuit is designed to deliver 2400. That maximum 5% total drop (4% from the 20A circuit, 1% from the main drop) is more like 1% in reality. So power wiring is not a limiting factor. Those with multiple stand-alone power amps might pop breakers during simultaneous startup, but that's not an indication of real audio usage.

I am not convinced that ACD is really meaningful either, because probability of a soundtrack demanding full power at any instant (it's a peak thing, not an RMS thing) from all channels is extremely low, and home users don't typically play at reference, but that's another story. 1kHz continuous testing is also not particularly useful either. I do agree that amp specs are complete nonsense, but I'm not sure all fudged output power figures matter as much as we might expect. Single figure distortion specs are also pretty meaningless, but what do you do for the poor consumer? If manufacturers would simply refrain from distortion figures made above the clipping knee, that would be a major improvement. As to the difference in channel power measured single or 2 channel vs ACD, probably not that much of a problem. The difference between 60 and 80 watts sounds huge, but it's 1.2 dB.

 

[Tony V.]

Im not going to go into details as this has been discussed to death on the "other" old forum but I did some fairly comprehensive digging into weather a larger power supply in a receiver makes a difference and using data collected from a couple reputable sites on bench tests on many models of receivers the ones that had larger power supplies in them fared much better in driving the amps to their rated outputs.
Most people do not have dedicated 20amp circuits to their systems so line voltage can be affected when shared with other items.

 

[dc2bluelight]

I won't dispute the need for "larger" power supplies, but I also don't know what you mean specifically. Perhaps a link to your "digging", then?

Remember that a fully loaded 20A circuit 75 feet from the breaker box will have a maximum voltage drop of 4%.. and then the breaker opens. 120V becomes 115.2.

 

[Tony V.]

I won't dispute the need for "larger" power supplies, but I also don't know what you mean specifically. Perhaps a link to your "digging", then?

Generally the size meaning weight and often the use of a tordodal power supply is an advantage. Keep in mind I am also speaking of A/B amplification as other types are less demanding but less common as well.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...55-can-size-power-supply-make-difference.html

Remember that a fully loaded 20A circuit 75 feet from the breaker box will have a maximum voltage drop of 4%.. and then the breaker opens. 120V becomes 115.2.

drop that down to a 15amp circuit most people do not have 20amp

 

[Flak]

The Hiss in the onkyo is only on the line level outputs. The amps are silent. I actually suspect their may be noise gates built into receivers to artificially lower the noise

Hi Matthew,
I did'nt look into this subject but Markus made available the attached file of "silence" that one can play so that noise gates won't trigger...

Flavio

 

[dc2bluelight]

Generally the size meaning weight and often the use of a tordodal power supply is an advantage. Keep in mind I am also speaking of A/B amplification as other types are less demanding but less common as well.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...55-can-size-power-supply-make-difference.html

Yes, I did see that. It's an attempt to correlate AVR weight with maximum power output using ACD as the metric. Correlating AVR price vs max Po/ACD would probably have as much merit. You're including product design and marketing constraints in that comparison.

The thing is, SMPS technology has advanced, and could match or surpass that of the heavy iron/copper analog supplies, but wouldn't work well in a high end AVR because of marketing issues and perceived value:weight ratio. It's not really a question of the technology of being up to the task, it's a question of what people think they want to pay for.

And there's still a question of using ACD as a valid test condition.

drop that down to a 15amp circuit most people do not have 20amp

Ok, add a little less than 1% additional voltage drop for a fully loaded 15A circuit with 14ga wire. Doesn't change anything in reality, plenty of voltage and current available at the outlet.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Hi Matthew,
I did'nt look into this subject but Markus made available the attached file of "silence" that one can play so that noise gates won't trigger...

Flavio

Ah so there are noise gates! Those sneaky buggers. I was essentially sending a digital silence track when I noticed the problem previously so I think i have my own way to test that may amount to the same.