Benchmark AHB2 Power Amp: The Quietest and Cleanest Amp on Planet Earth?

[RichB]

Who listens to Garth? That's young girl stuff, or at least use to be.

Not at all arguing that it's 1000 watts into 2 ohms... that much is pretty clear. However, that would equate to considerably less power into 4 ohms, pretty sure of that too. No reason to wiggle around it.

I still like to compare apples to apples with ratings, and the 15A's are nominally rated at 4 ohms. So comparing 1000 watts 2 ohms (NC1200) to 500 watts 4 ohms (AHB2) is not really apples to apples is it?

You are probably right about not hearing the 1%, but then there is perception... and 1% THD destroys me mentally, whether it affects my hearing or not... you should know that by now.

So what's your plan for those AHB2s...

- Rich

 

[Sonnie]

So what's your plan for those AHB2s...

- Rich

I'll be putting them up for sale once I get the Magtechs.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I should be well north of 1000 watts at 2 ohms using the Magtech.

Based on what measurement??

The next question is can you sing like Garth...

You gents are waaay off

 

[Sonnie]

Based on what measurement??

Just common sense thinking is all... it does work sometimes you know.

And I NEVER claimed I could sing. That's not even really me whistling above.

 

[RichB]

I'll be putting them up for sale once I get the Magtechs.

Why not drive the Revels with them?

- Rich

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Just common sense thinking is all... it does work sometimes you know.

Yeah I always get that confused with wishful thinking. Like "specs" etc.
Well the good news is they appear to have no flashing lights to create drama.

cheers

 

[ddude003]

You gents are waaay off

Party on wayne!!!

 

[Sonnie]

Why not drive the Revels with them?

- Rich

The Revels are really more for testing during our upcoming event in July, unless for some reason I end up liking them better than the 15A's... then I'll probably order the Salon's and sell the 328's. Besides... I can't afford to keep all this expensive gear... some of it has to go.

Yeah I always get that confused with wishful thinking. Like "specs" etc.
Well the good news is they appear to have no flashing lights to create drama.

cheers

Very true... either way, I will feel more psycho-mentally comfortable knowing I have amps that should have zero issue with these speakers... even if it's only 900 watts of clean power. Maybe one day Amir will get ahold of one and measure it. If for some reason they aren't enough, then I'll swap them out for the mono amps. 1600 watts RMS into an 8 ohm load / 2000 watts RMS into a 4 ohm load... then we can blow some speakers up.

 

[RichB]

The Revels are really more for testing during our upcoming event in July, unless for some reason I end up liking them better than the 15A's... then I'll probably order the Salon's and sell the 328's. Besides... I can't afford to keep all this expensive gear... some of it has to go.


Very true... either way, I will feel more psycho-mentally comfortable knowing I have amps that should have zero issue with these speakers... even if it's only 900 watts of clean power. Maybe one day Amir will get ahold of one and measure it. If for some reason they aren't enough, then I'll swap them out for the mono amps. 1600 watts RMS into an 8 ohm load / 2000 watts RMS into a 4 ohm load... then we can blow some speakers up.

If the 328Bes are like the F208s and M126Bes, they are very detailed, fast, up front dynamic.
The Salon2s are smooth and can disappear unlike any speaker I have owned. Though that may be true of the 15As, I have never heard them.

DonHo50 (ASR) had planar and moved to the Salon2s. You could PM him about them.
The word is the Salon2s will be discontinued soon. That is another reason, I like driving them with AHB2s that have excellent protection.

- Rich

 

[ddude003]

If the 328Bes are like the F208s and M126Bes, they are very detailed, fast, up front dynamic.

I think it is going to be pretty hard, read expensive, to find something faster than Electrostats... Think Plasma... And then there is that surface area... With 15As it is 690 square inches... Covering 21,000 Hz down to 300 Hz...

 

[Sonnie]

I really do hate getting rid of the Benchmarks. If I had another legitimate room to use them, but I don't... nor can I afford to keep them.

Yeah... I have yet to find anything that would compete with the stats yet... started way back with the Acsent i's in 2007... and progressed from there.

• EPI 320 (1984 ... not 100% positive on the model, but I do remember an 8" woofer that kept bottoming out)
• Infinity SM120 (1986 ... had a 12" woofer, but wife complained they were too loud for the single wide trailer we lived in so I had to send them back to Crutchfield)
• Klipsh Forte (1988 - WAF collapsed - also added Klipsh KG1's for front and rear surrounds)
• Snell B-Minor / Snell HCC500 Center / Snell SUR500 Surrounds (1991 - our first major home theater system)
• B&W 600 Series i (1994 - still use these in our sun room as of 2021)
• PSB Image 6T / 9C / 10S (2001 - in our first dedicated home theater which was half of the garage that I later tore out)
• Klipsch Synergy All-Weather SA-3 (2005 - still in use for outdoors - still sound pretty good in 2021)
• VMPS RM30 / Dipole Surround SE (2006 - used RM30 for LCR setup)
• JBL Northridge E90 / EC35 / E10 (2006)
• SVS SBS-01 System (2006)
• Boston Acoustics VR2 / VRC / VRX (2006)
• Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 / CBM-170 SE (2007 - CBM-170 are still surrounds in our great room as of 2021)
• MartinLogan Ascent i / Motif / Fresco (2007)
• MartinLogan Spire / Matinee / Clarity (2009)
• MartinLogan Prodigy / Theater / Ascent (2009)
• Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1 / CST-1 (2012 - former front stage of our great room)
• MartinLogan Montis / Stage Center / Motion 12 Surrounds (2013)
• Arx A5 (2013 - for two channel swap-out system within my home theater room)
• Infinity Primus P163 / PC351 Center (2013 - moved to cabin by pond in 2019)
• SVS Ultra Towers / Ultra Center / Ultra Bookshelf Surrounds (2014)
• MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL / Stage X Center (2015)
• Chane A5rx-c (2016 - for occasional swap-out - two-channel listening, and reference speakers under $1000 - still own as of 2021)
• KEF Q900 (2016 - got a great deal on them - eventually used in our 2017 speaker evaluation here at AV NIRVANA)
• MartinLogan Expression 13A (2016 - with Stage X as center and moved ESL's to rear)
• Scansonic M9 (2017 - got a great deal on them - eventually used in our 2017 speaker evaluation here at AV NIRVANA)
• MartinLogan EM-IC (2017 - added 4 Atmos in-ceiling speakers)
• Emotiva T2 / T1 / C2 (2018)
• RSL Outsiders (2019 - outdoor porch on our cabin down by the pond)
• Eminent Technology LFT-8b (2019)
• MartinLogan Classic ESL 9 / Focus ESL C-18 (2019 - Electromotion ESL's moved to side-surround and Motion 12's for rear, and EM-IC in-ceiling for Atmos height)
• MartinLogan ElectroMotion EFX On-wall Surround (Moved ESL's to rear - no longer using Motion 12's)
• MartinLogan Renaissance ESL 15A (Replaced Classic ESL 9)

And I've been to RMAF, Capital City Audiofest, Axpona, Lonestar and heard a few hundred other systems/speakers... just never heard anything to cause me to move from the stats.

Amir was very impressed with the F328Be... and I'm not sure he wasn't convinced they were as good as his Salons and just didn't want to admit it. They are number 3 on his list as of right now. I'll be curious to see how they fair during our event. We'll see... you never know.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

even if it's only 900 watts of clean power.

"Spec'd". 4 ohms. Which has no relevance at 1-2 ohms. Like your speakers load.

Maybe one day Amir will get ahold of one and measure it.

Hopefully yours. And he starts testing amps into lower than 4ohms. Like 2 ohms.

If for some reason they aren't enough, then I'll swap them out for the mono amps. 1600 watts RMS into an 8 ohm load / 2000 watts RMS into a 4 ohm load... then we can blow some speakers up.

The important rating for your speakers, driven hard, is 2 ohm capability. Maybe you could get a not terribly expensive "backup" , hook them to the AVA ABX and tell us if you can detect any difference between Magtech. Prior to sending the Magtech for measurements.


cheers

 

[RichB]

I really do hate getting rid of the Benchmarks. If I had another legitimate room to use them, but I don't... nor can I afford to keep them.

Yeah... I have yet to find anything that would compete with the stats yet... started way back with the Acsent i's in 2007... and progressed from there.

• EPI 320 (1984 ... not 100% positive on the model, but I do remember an 8" woofer that kept bottoming out)
• Infinity SM120 (1986 ... had a 12" woofer, but wife complained they were too loud for the single wide trailer we lived in so I had to send them back to Crutchfield)
• Klipsh Forte (1988 - WAF collapsed - also added Klipsh KG1's for front and rear surrounds)
• Snell B-Minor / Snell HCC500 Center / Snell SUR500 Surrounds (1991 - our first major home theater system)
• B&W 600 Series i (1994 - still use these in our sun room as of 2021)
• PSB Image 6T / 9C / 10S (2001 - in our first dedicated home theater which was half of the garage that I later tore out)
• Klipsch Synergy All-Weather SA-3 (2005 - still in use for outdoors - still sound pretty good in 2021)
• VMPS RM30 / Dipole Surround SE (2006 - used RM30 for LCR setup)
• JBL Northridge E90 / EC35 / E10 (2006)
• SVS SBS-01 System (2006)
• Boston Acoustics VR2 / VRC / VRX (2006)
• Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 / CBM-170 SE (2007 - CBM-170 are still surrounds in our great room as of 2021)
• MartinLogan Ascent i / Motif / Fresco (2007)
• MartinLogan Spire / Matinee / Clarity (2009)
• MartinLogan Prodigy / Theater / Ascent (2009)
• Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1 / CST-1 (2012 - former front stage of our great room)
• MartinLogan Montis / Stage Center / Motion 12 Surrounds (2013)
• Arx A5 (2013 - for two channel swap-out system within my home theater room)
• Infinity Primus P163 / PC351 Center (2013 - moved to cabin by pond in 2019)
• SVS Ultra Towers / Ultra Center / Ultra Bookshelf Surrounds (2014)
• MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL / Stage X Center (2015)
• Chane A5rx-c (2016 - for occasional swap-out - two-channel listening, and reference speakers under $1000 - still own as of 2021)
• KEF Q900 (2016 - got a great deal on them - eventually used in our 2017 speaker evaluation here at AV NIRVANA)
• MartinLogan Expression 13A (2016 - with Stage X as center and moved ESL's to rear)
• Scansonic M9 (2017 - got a great deal on them - eventually used in our 2017 speaker evaluation here at AV NIRVANA)
• MartinLogan EM-IC (2017 - added 4 Atmos in-ceiling speakers)
• Emotiva T2 / T1 / C2 (2018)
• RSL Outsiders (2019 - outdoor porch on our cabin down by the pond)
• Eminent Technology LFT-8b (2019)
• MartinLogan Classic ESL 9 / Focus ESL C-18 (2019 - Electromotion ESL's moved to side-surround and Motion 12's for rear, and EM-IC in-ceiling for Atmos height)
• MartinLogan ElectroMotion EFX On-wall Surround (Moved ESL's to rear - no longer using Motion 12's)
• MartinLogan Renaissance ESL 15A (Replaced Classic ESL 9)

And I've been to RMAF, Capital City Audiofest, Axpona, Lonestar and heard a few hundred other systems/speakers... just never heard anything to cause me to move from the stats.

Amir was very impressed with the F328Be... and I'm not sure he wasn't convinced they were as good as his Salons and just didn't want to admit it. They are number 3 on his list as of right now. I'll be curious to see how they fair during our event. We'll see... you never know.

View attachment 41595

That is a truly impressive, dizzying, number of speakers owned.
It would be interesting to get your impressions driving the 328Bes with single and bridged AHB2s. These speakers are revealing.

- Rich

 

[Sonnie]

Wish I could hang on to them, but financially can't afford to... my accountant is already screaming at me now (SELL! SELL! SELL!)

Amir won't get these Magtechs. I won't send him anything else after the attitude he had with me when I sent him my SHD... he was totally unappreciative. He never even said thank you, and copped an attitude after having to ask him a couple of time about when he could ship it on to me, well after he was finished.

No reason for me to do ABX... I can't hear differences in amps, unless something is wrong with one of them. Been there and done that.

 

[ddude003]

@Sonnie, Have you ever thought of joining a 12 step program??? All joking aside, you have an amazing amount of hands on experience with AV and Stereo Systems...

 

[Sonnie]

@Sonnie, Have you ever thought of joining a 12 step program??? All joking aside, you have an amazing amount of hands on experience with AV and Stereo Systems...

It truly hasn't helped much... all the programs I've been in.... NOR... all the equipment experience. lol ... What I wish is that I had all the money I've lost on selling gear too cheap due to my compulsive spontaneous AV purchases.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I really do hate getting rid of the Benchmarks. If I had another legitimate room to use them, but I don't... nor can I afford to keep them.

Yeah... I have yet to find anything that would compete with the stats yet... started way back with the Acsent i's in 2007... and progressed from there.

• EPI 320 (1984 ... not 100% positive on the model, but I do remember an 8" woofer that kept bottoming out)
• Infinity SM120 (1986 ... had a 12" woofer, but wife complained they were too loud for the single wide trailer we lived in so I had to send them back to Crutchfield)
• Klipsh Forte (1988 - WAF collapsed - also added Klipsh KG1's for front and rear surrounds)
• Snell B-Minor / Snell HCC500 Center / Snell SUR500 Surrounds (1991 - our first major home theater system)
• B&W 600 Series i (1994 - still use these in our sun room as of 2021)
• PSB Image 6T / 9C / 10S (2001 - in our first dedicated home theater which was half of the garage that I later tore out)
• Klipsch Synergy All-Weather SA-3 (2005 - still in use for outdoors - still sound pretty good in 2021)
• VMPS RM30 / Dipole Surround SE (2006 - used RM30 for LCR setup)
• JBL Northridge E90 / EC35 / E10 (2006)
• SVS SBS-01 System (2006)
• Boston Acoustics VR2 / VRC / VRX (2006)
• Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 / CBM-170 SE (2007 - CBM-170 are still surrounds in our great room as of 2021)
• MartinLogan Ascent i / Motif / Fresco (2007)
• MartinLogan Spire / Matinee / Clarity (2009)
• MartinLogan Prodigy / Theater / Ascent (2009)
• Carnegie Acoustics CSB-1 / CST-1 (2012 - former front stage of our great room)
• MartinLogan Montis / Stage Center / Motion 12 Surrounds (2013)
• Arx A5 (2013 - for two channel swap-out system within my home theater room)
• Infinity Primus P163 / PC351 Center (2013 - moved to cabin by pond in 2019)
• SVS Ultra Towers / Ultra Center / Ultra Bookshelf Surrounds (2014)
• MartinLogan ElectroMotion ESL / Stage X Center (2015)
• Chane A5rx-c (2016 - for occasional swap-out - two-channel listening, and reference speakers under $1000 - still own as of 2021)
• KEF Q900 (2016 - got a great deal on them - eventually used in our 2017 speaker evaluation here at AV NIRVANA)
• MartinLogan Expression 13A (2016 - with Stage X as center and moved ESL's to rear)
• Scansonic M9 (2017 - got a great deal on them - eventually used in our 2017 speaker evaluation here at AV NIRVANA)
• MartinLogan EM-IC (2017 - added 4 Atmos in-ceiling speakers)
• Emotiva T2 / T1 / C2 (2018)
• RSL Outsiders (2019 - outdoor porch on our cabin down by the pond)
• Eminent Technology LFT-8b (2019)
• MartinLogan Classic ESL 9 / Focus ESL C-18 (2019 - Electromotion ESL's moved to side-surround and Motion 12's for rear, and EM-IC in-ceiling for Atmos height)
• MartinLogan ElectroMotion EFX On-wall Surround (Moved ESL's to rear - no longer using Motion 12's)
• MartinLogan Renaissance ESL 15A (Replaced Classic ESL 9)

I am impressed by your list and, also, by the observation that (with the exception of the KEF Q900 that I had for review) I have never owned, reviewed nor coveted any of them! It is a great example of the breadth of offerings and interests in this space that we occupy together.

Amir was very impressed with the F328Be... and I'm not sure he wasn't convinced they were as good as his Salons and just didn't want to admit it. They are number 3 on his list as of right now. I'll be curious to see how they fair during our event. We'll see... you never know.

BEEP! An intersection finally.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Amir won't get these Magtechs. I won't send him anything else after the attitude he had with me when I sent him my SHD... he was totally unappreciative. He never even said thank you, and copped an attitude after having to ask him a couple of time about when he could ship it on to me, well after he was finished.

Ouch, oh well. Hopefully you can at least measure your MLs impedance.

Amir was very impressed with the F328Be... and I'm not sure he wasn't convinced they were as good as his Salons and just didn't want to admit it. They are number 3 on his list as of right now. I'll be curious to see how they fair during our event. We'll see... you never know.

View attachment 41595

Ok, first off, Amir measures, then listens sighted, pumps fully primed by said measurements. Forget any valid evaluation.
Second, that list you posted there is highly dubious, based on quite a bit of assumptions/Harman research, not actual listening tests. Some very good speakers at top, but take those "calculated" "ratings" with a huge grain of salt, much like the "SINAD" business.
OTOH, Kal who chimed in did indeed do a valid evaluation of the Revels, not "calculated", but with his ears, so his assessment, at least for him, holds far greater validity.

cheers

 

[Sonnie]

I am impressed by your list and, also, by the observation that (with the exception of the KEF Q900 that I had for review) I have never owned, reviewed nor coveted any of them! It is a great example of the breadth of offerings and interests in this space that we occupy together.

BEEP! An intersection finally.

Yeah... I can only imagine what your list would look like. Of course if I added the speakers we've reviewed in our evaluations, my list would be a little bit longer, but still nowhere near what yours would be. Then again, yours should be longer, as you have me in the industry by a considerable number of years and your primary function as been reviewing for a high profile organization.

Ouch, oh well. Hopefully you can at least measure your MLs impedance.


Ok, first off, Amir measures, then listens sighted, pumps fully primed by said measurements. Forget any valid evaluation.
Second, that list you posted there is highly dubious, based on quite a bit of assumptions/Harman research, not actual listening tests. Some very good speakers at top, but take those "calculated" "ratings" with a huge grain of salt, much like the "SINAD" business.
OTOH, Kal who chimed in did indeed do a valid evaluation of the Revels, not "calculated", but with his ears, so his assessment, at least for him, holds far greater validity.

cheers

I ordered up the impedance gizmo... guess I musta been dreaming on seeing the impedance graph on those... or maybe it was the Montis back when I had them.

I fully agree... and already know that Amir's list is based fully on measurements... already made that statement several times to others. I was not trying to make the list some sort of authority on how to consider speakers. We were talking about Salons vs F328Be and I know he owns Salons, as does Rich. I simply made a comment because Rich frequents that forum a lot... people can gather from the list whatever they desire. Sorry I did not include the full back-story to my comments so you could have saved some heartache in your response. I have also read Kal's review, as well as a couple of others that have reviewed it. All of the above is the reason I wanted to evaluate them for myself.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

OTOH, Kal who chimed in did indeed do a valid evaluation of the Revels, not "calculated", but with his ears, so his assessment, at least for him, holds far greater validity.

I have also read Kal's review, as well as a couple of others that have reviewed it. All of the above is the reason I wanted to evaluate them for myself.

FWIW, I reviewed the F228Be, not the F328Be.

 

[Sonnie]

FWIW, I reviewed the F228Be, not the F328Be.

Yep... that's the one I read. I actually ordered those, but instead they shipped me the 328's due to the 328's being back-ordered for several months. I didn't argue about it.

I'm pretty sure I've read all the reviews on the F328Be, F228Be and Salon reviews... and all of the F208 reviews as well. I can't remember anything bad about any of them... all very good speakers.

Another thing about Amir is he either has, or had some ties to Revel, so it's no surprise that he prefers them.

 

[RichB]

View attachment 41595

Ouch, oh well. Hopefully you can at least measure your MLs impedance.

Ok, first off, Amir measures, then listens sighted, pumps fully primed by said measurements. Forget any valid evaluation.
Second, that list you posted there is highly dubious, based on quite a bit of assumptions/Harman research, not actual listening tests. Some very good speakers at top, but take those "calculated" "ratings" with a huge grain of salt, much like the "SINAD" business.
OTOH, Kal who chimed in did indeed do a valid evaluation of the Revels, not "calculated", but with his ears, so his assessment, at least for him, holds far greater validity.

cheers

I agree with AJ on this chart. Too much one size fits all.
IMO, SINAD is useful in that it provides some objective qualitive metric where there are often none.
ASR unapproved measurements have resulting in bugs fixed, that happened for my RMC-1.

I don't know if all DACs lab measured with similar SINAD sound the same.
That is the right answer for me but others know they sound the same.

The trouble is, if you can't trust your own listening sessions, you cant trust honorable reviewers (they exist), you can't trust SINAD, then all that is left is to assume that all products are the same.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

There are 328Be owners (or prospective owners) that are asking about amps and the AHB2 in particular.
If you have the chance, it would be great to get your insights about the sound and, particularly, if they have sufficient power single and bridged.

- Rich

 

[Sonnie]

IIRC... it was Amir's first measurements on the SHD that caused miniDSP to fix one of the (perhaps non-audible to most) issues with it.

As for the AHB2's... I am not one of those that can hear differences in amps, short of pressing a Denon AVR to beyond it's limits once, it did not sound good, clearly a difference when pushed beyond its limits.

My reasoning for purchasing the AHB2's is in the first post of this thread. They certainly have been the cleanest rated/tested amps in my system and sounded as good as anything I've ever owned. Zero issues outside of the warning lights when trying to power a speaker (to very moderate levels) they are not truly designed to power (15A's)... so it's not amp's fault.

If I can get a chance to setup the F328Be's before the Magtechs arrive, I will try to see how they fair with the AHB2's. It's quite the task to unpack them, but I could leave them in the room until the guys get there for our evaluation. Who knows... I might leave the 15A's to the side and spend a couple of months with the Revels... or swap them back and forth. Both sets of speakers are just so big... no place to store them when unpacked except in my listening room. But... this sounds like a good plan for me to accomplish this weekend.

 

[RichB]

Stereophile measured the Salon2s provide measured 87 dB at 2.83 volts.
The AHB2 drives them plenty loud for me bi-amping the Salon2s.

During these tests the playback chain for music is:
Oppo UDP-205 -> Benchmark LA4 (low gain) -> AHB2 (per speaker biamp) -> Salon2s.

The LA4 outputs enough voltage to drive the AHB2s in low gain mode.

- Rich