AV NIRVANA Speaker Evaluation Event - Tower Speakers $1200 or Less (Results)

[Tonto]

Hey guys, really nice job so far! Did you do any off axis listening? This is a big piece of speaker preformance...not everybody is always in the sweet spot and I find many speakers handle this so differently.

 

[Sonnie]

Unfortunately time would not permit another listening session off-axis, which would also be very difficult to judge anyway, as nothing sounds good off-axis that I've ever heard. I suspect it would be a serious challenge to even try to describe what you hear off-axis too. Our goal is to evaluate for the best two-channel critical listening performance, which will always require listening in the sweet spot.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Unfortunately time would not permit another listening session off-axis, which would also be very difficult to judge anyway, as nothing sounds good off-axis that I've ever heard. I suspect it would be a serious challenge to even try to describe what you hear off-axis too. Our goal is to evaluate for the best two-channel critical listening performance, which will always require listening in the sweet spot.

Hey Sonnie, this is a somewhat ironic comment as it was apparently a topic of debate for another moderator recently. Do some speakers sound better when toed so you are off the central axis?

The answer is an unequivocal yes. In fact some speakers with an axis-symetric waveguide in the vertical and horizontal axis will have an on axis hole that makes the on axis response not flat.

All speakers have a particular set of design choices and waveguides serve a very specific purpose: controlling directivity. The design goal with a waveguide speaker is a flat directivity index (or should be if the designer knows what they are doing). My speaker, for example has a listening axis of 22 degrees. That means the toe angle should be such that the listener in the sweet spot is actually hearing each speakers 22 degree from center axis response.

Waveguides and directivity matching at the crossover allow such speakers to roll off the response such that at a certain axis the response is flat but 6db quieter. This creates a listening axis where the response is flat but gets louder and quieter within a +\- 3db window. This allows a little magic to take place, you can create a huge sweet spot and a more stable soundstage. The physics that allow this is known as time intensity trading. I won't bugger up this thread with an explanation but I'll like an article that explains it. I think it's a very misunderstood topic unfortunately and has lead to most large waveguide speakers being setup improperly.

http://www.libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup of WG Speakers.pdf

The only speaker you had that could potentially achieve this feat is the JBL and it's small midbass drivers mean that it would only have directivity control down to the crossover point. Still I was curious how it would do.

I'm hoping to do a more detailed write-up with a video or animation to show this effect. There are some applications that let you click through the polar response to see how it works for a waveguide speaker vs a direct radiator.

 

[Sonnie]

Ironic that you mention the JBL... as we did set them up and evaluate them cross-firing about 6 inches in front of the listener. I just happen to be curious about the off-axis response and moved my head left-right... and sat in the chair right of center, and the off-axis listening was drastically skewed in all cases... it was not good. The sweet spot was still very narrow. However, the crossover point on those is 1.5kHz... and we did not attempt (for lack of time) to try any other placements or toe-in changes. Perhaps with the right speaker and more time there would be different results.

An article on that would be good to have on the site... probably would generate some good discussion/debate, etc.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Ironic that you mention the JBL... as we did set them up and evaluate them cross-firing about 6 inches in front of the listener. I just happen to be curious about the off-axis response and moved my head left-right... and sat in the chair right of center, and the off-axis listening was drastically skewed in all cases... it was not good. The sweet spot was still very narrow. However, the crossover point on those is 1.5kHz... and we did not attempt (for lack of time) to try any other placements or toe-in changes. Perhaps with the right speaker and more time there would be different results.

An article on that would be good to have on the site... probably would generate some good discussion/debate, etc.

It is very possible that the JBL is not constant directivity. They don't publish it's polar response so there is no way to know until someone measures it. It's too bad it didn't work out but that's also good to know that didn't work. Goes to show that waveguide does not equal CD behavior.

 

[Sonnie]

The ELAC Uni-fi UF5 evaluation has been posted: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/a...peakers-1200-or-less-results.1640/#post-15059

 

[Matthew J Poes]

The ELAC Uni-fi UF5 evaluation has been posted: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/a...peakers-1200-or-less-results.1640/#post-15059

That's an interesting review and set of measurements. About how close is the front of the speaker from the front wall when they are pushed against the wall. About 20-24"? It causes a really pronounced suckout in the bass around 90hz or so, which I'm assuming is SBIR.

You can really see that it's voicing causes a small difference in the shape of the Dirac curve as well. A little lift in the midrange, almost tent shaped.

 

[Sonnie]

They will all be 36" unless noted. Wayne should be adding those measurements eventually.

 

[AudiocRaver]

Dimensions for "at-the-wall" were added at the end of the first post of the thread. All of the evaluated models were set the same, about 36 in from front panel of the speaker to the front wall, except for the JBL, which was 38 in due to cabinet depth.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

They will all be 36" unless noted. Wayne should be adding those measurements eventually.

Perfect. Here is an estimated calculation for your SBIR in that position.

36"=94hz. Exactly what we see. That really shows the importance of pulling the speakers out from the wall substantially. The rear wall SBIR is basically gone once you are 6-7 feet from the front wall.

Actually the rear wall peak and side wall peaks all seem to explain the peak in the response. That's interesting how nicely all of that lines up with the SBIR calculation.

You can't really EQ the nulls but you can EQ the peaks and even though they are up into the transition region it should be ok since they are the same for any listening position.

I still can't get over how big a difference DIRAC has made here. When someone normally has a response like you guys started with you do a little EQ to not down the peaks but basically live with those big wide nulls.

 

[AudiocRaver]

The Emotiva Airmotiv T1 evaluation has been posted. I gotta do some catching up! The JBL Studio 590 review will be online TOMORROW!

 

[GFOviedo]

Newegg had the JBL Studio's 590 for $899 free shipping for the pair.

 

[bkeeler10]

The Emotiva Airmotiv T1 evaluation has been posted. I gotta do some catching up! The JBL Studio 590 review will be online TOMORROW!

Sounds like a very impressive showing from the Emotiva. Isn't it wonderful that "budget" audio gear these days is as good as it is?!

 

[AudiocRaver]

Yes, Brian, these did not sound "Budget" at all. Goes to show what a bunch of good designers / engineers can do when they have the right goals in mind.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Yes, Brian, these did not sound "Budget" at all. Goes to show what a bunch of good designers / engineers can do when they have the right goals in mind.

And no bean counters getting in the way. Highly advanced manufacturing facilities with low production costs haven't hurt either.

I haven't spent much time with these but urged a friend to buy them and he really likes them. I've heard them a little at his place and was really impressed.

 

[AudiocRaver]

Indeed, an impressive speaker, very easy to like!

 

[AudiocRaver]

The JBL Studio 590 post is up!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

The JBL Studio 590 post is up!

In some ways I was rooting for the JBL to be a standout performer in this test but I'm actually a bit disappointed. jBL has had issues with overly bright speakers for some time and has been a company I wanted to love but often don't. Nobody outs more money into good sound science than JBL, yet often their affordable speakers look to be picked to death by the bean counters.

The fact that he bass drivers distorted after Dirac, while fixable with subs and a different dirac curve, was disappointing. It makes me question the quality a bit.

I appreciate you indulging my request and testing the proper toe for CD speakers. The fact that it didn't improve the soundstage or sweet spot size is disappointing. It suggests they may not be CD.

I may have gotten these calculations off, but based on a cardas placement my own calculation suggests that the waveguide aiming should have stuck them at about ~50-60 degree toe if placed with an 8 foot distance apart and roughly 7.5 foot right angle distance from speaker to listener.

 

[Sonnie]

Cardas is heavily dependent on the room size, and it was not exact Cardas we were using... it just started at the Cardas placement back years ago, and we've somewhat worked from that location to find the best placement to yield the best sound stage and imaging. If we'd had more time with the speakers, we may have perhaps found a better alignment for them, but unfortunately we can only spend so much time with a speaker during these events. It's a benefit for speakers that are easier to place.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Cardas is heavily dependent on the room size, and it was not exact Cardas we were using... it just started at the Cardas placement back years ago, and we've somewhat worked from that location to find the best placement to yield the best sound stage and imaging. If we'd had more time with the speakers, we may have perhaps found a better alignment for them, but unfortunately we can only spend so much time with a speaker during these events. It's a benefit for speakers that are easier to place.

Very understandable. Did you have to send all the speakers back to the manufacturers at this point or are they still invading your hallways?

I do find this set of reviews helpful. I know for sure you reinforced an uninformed belief I had, that the Emotiva was a killer value for people with modest budgets. I know what speakers I'll suggest to folks in that market.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Great stuff, gentlemen! Interesting comments about those JBL's. That's not a speaker that've had a ton of experience with. Reads like they had just a little bit of too much razor-sharpness on the highs?

 

[AudiocRaver]

In some ways I was rooting for the JBL to be a standout performer in this test but I'm actually a bit disappointed. jBL has had issues with overly bright speakers for some time and has been a company I wanted to love but often don't. Nobody outs more money into good sound science than JBL, yet often their affordable speakers look to be picked to death by the bean counters.

Great stuff, gentlemen! Interesting comments about those JBL's. That's not a speaker that've had a ton of experience with. Reads like they had just a little bit of too much razor-sharpness on the highs?

I really wanted to like the Studio 590, they had a lot going for them. I felt like in the final "Crossed" setup they were performing well, but could not get past the distortion issues.

On the over-brightness issue, I can see, and have assumed, that a pro studio with plenty of treatment options might find that level of forwardness welcome for its flatness and able to be controlled with EQ and/or treatment if needed. Or, maybe it is just bean counters getting in the way.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I really wanted to like the Studio 590, they had a lot going for them. I felt like in the final "Crossed" setup they were performing well, but could not get past the distortion issues.

On the over-brightness issue, I can see, and have assumed, that a pro studio with plenty of treatment options might find that level of forwardness welcome for its flatness and able to be controlled with EQ and/or treatment if needed. Or, maybe it is just bean counters getting in the way.

The only reason I blame bean counters is that the brightness is more tolerable on the more expensive D7 based speakers like the M2. Those are still a lively speaker but I can easily listen to them for a long time. I can give all sorts of guesses as to what I think is going on, but really don't know. I have seen the dome tweeter in the studio series and thought it seemed rather poor quality. I know you can't judge a tweeter by its size and materials, but I was unimpressed none the less. In general I am not tolerant of bright speakers and find a lot of metal dome tweeters to sound bright. jBL uses a lot of metal dome tweeters.

The bass distortion was really the bigger cost control sign. It sounds like the midbass may lack enough excursion. It is possible that too much boost was added below the port tuning, and I know you didn't have a lot of time to play around, but that bothered me. If none of the other speakers had this issue, why did the JBL?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Might have helped if I had looked these up, I guess the tweeter is polymer not metal. Looks like the dome breaks up just above 20khz which might explain it. Might just be the tonal balance.

I mentioned to Sonnie my other issue with recent JBL is they continue to use a diffraction slot. Good research that they are aware of showed listener dislike the sound caused by diffraction slots. The advantages are far outweighed by the disadvantages. The sound of a diffraction slot in the blinded study was described as harshness or brightness. That might be the explanation here.

 

[jtalden]

Great job on these evaluations. I particularly like the inclusion of the measurements and the decision to test in 2 locations and with and without Dirac. I still need to read through all this more carefully as there is a lot of good information here.

Are the JBL horns really a compression driver? The

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online looked like this is a typical dome using with a phase button in front of it driving the horn/waveguide. The Klipsch looks similar.

The JBL Pro 7 Series line would be more interesting to me. The 708i at $1200 looks to be a good candidate for true pro performance - lots of headroom. I have never heard them though.