- Feb 5, 2018
If this appeared as a problem in the simulations I could have another look. Is this based on the measurement you sent me?
This suggestion has merit. I was lucky and could compensate with a high pass filter on the Khorn channels. I am now pushing the Epik subs with more gain. In my sub line array, equal output sounds great and there is enough headroom for the corrections.I would like to request a feature for multi-sub-setups.
1. Consider a setup with multiple subwoofers of the exact same type, but different distances to MLP.
Audiolense will equalize them to be equally loud in MLP, which will put more stress on the subwoofers that are the furthest away from MLP.
2. Consider a setup with multiple subwoofers, of different capability (cone area).
Audiolense will equalize them to be equally loud in MLP, which will put more stress on the subwoofers that have the least cone area.
I would like the possibility to level adjust the subwoofers independently, to account for these differences. F.x. if I measure my subwoofers, and can see that one sub has an overall 5dB less output volume than the others, then I would want to keep that difference and not put an extra 5dB gain/stress on that particular subwoofer.
I can say from listening tests that this is a HUGE issue, every bit as big as those -15 dB valleys in bass response show in the post above.A subwoofer is a separate speaker when it processes LFE and no measures have been taken to ensure integration between LFE and the main speakers.
If that becomes a problem, simply route the LFE signal to the main speakers and leave it to the bass ofloading, which is properly synchronised with the main speakers.
I recognized the problem when experimenting with BEQdesigner software. Then I found the paper I referenced and in it was hidden a one line comment that Genelec routed LFE through the center speaker. Then I applied the flexibility of your routing matrix for a solution. It really does work well without any downside as far as I can tell (you do usually need to return some digital gain after the AL filters).That was a neat solution you made up there with routing the LFE through the center, hulkss,
The difference that your last chart displays - that is the difference between a regular LFE and the center channel solution, right? Is everything due to poor integration or is it in part due to a low cutoff on the subwoofer? In any case I like your approach much better. I believe you are moving the frontier here.
Another advantage you get from running the LFE through a full range channel is faster risetime and a timing that is more in line with the rest of the speakers. In my time with the LFE I have always wondered whether the sub should start to play at the same time as the other speakers or whether it should peak at the same time. That problem goes away with your solution.
I've been doing some testing with your new setup. Audiolense is not handling the the situation with partly parallel subs as it should. Frankly I think this is the first time it has been tested. I will get out a fix as soon as I can.
Hi Bernt,Hi Hulkss,
I'm afraid most of these will have to wait until later. I have too much on my plate. In the meantime I can only offer a few pointers.
1) You can stack the weaker subs together and run them in parallel in a sub woofer. Alternatively, you can feed two or three subs - or all 5 for that matter - from the same sound card output by means of some line level cable splitting. You may also be able to do it in through your mixer's sound card.
2) You can put anything in a sub, but if you want full range output you may as well call it a regular speaker. It can till handle LFE. The only thing that sets a sub apart from other speakers is the lack of output above a few 100 Hz.
3) I believe you can work around that in the in-out matrix. Route the LFE to the center channel at whatever comparable spl level you prefer.
4) If you make a separate target for the sub, an lfe cutoff will not be used.
5) I do not recall at the moment, but I don't think it applies there.
I hope this helps ... and I believe these issues of yours will be less pressing when I get Audiolense in order for the subwoofer configuration you showed above.
I don't think I want or have mono bass (I do want mono sub-bass). All front speaker content below 80 Hz (which can't be localized) is going to a 5 driver sub array. Left, right, and center keep all bass content above 80 Hz which can be localized. The LFE, which is mono by definition, is also sent to the entire sub array with content above 80 Hz going to the Center channel where it can be localized properly and played with improved fidelity. The sub array is just a big subwoofer.2 So you want mono-bass. Why not just have a separate subwoofer and route all speakers through it? It will look different than your solution but it will do what you want to get done. You can send the LFE to one or two or three of these speakers. One may be the best bet here, since you have some phase differences between the speakers even after correction.
I was initially concerned about this. I used BEQdesigner to analyze the bass content of a few dozen multichannel recordings and I have used JRiver DSP to solo the LFE channel of many recordings. I have yet to find a recording that is degraded by the process I am using. I did find one movie that had high frequency "garbage" on the LFE channel. It could only be salvaged with a low pass filter on the LFE channel.Something to think about: By handling the LFE this way you may end up hearing stuff that the mastering engineer did not hear ... provided he mixed with a regular subwoofer in the studio.
This thread is super interesting. It is really great to read this constructive discussion about how to best use Audiolense for such a complex rig, and for multi-subs in general.
I have a question: not sure if I fully understand "2. Ability use a fullrange speaker as part of a sub array. (I pick "small" and route a sub driver channel in my MOTU mixer)". If you don't mind, I'd like to check if it can apply to my case.
I have a simple "2.0" setup; the L/R channels are configured in Audiolense as full-range speaker with 2 drivers each:
1) the speaker itself (crossover at 70 hz);
2) a 12" subwoofer.
Overall, a pair of speaker and stereo subs, but corrected in AL by pairing each speaker with its own 12" dedicated sub. All of this is driven by a RME Digiface.
Given the promising results I am getting with stereo listening, I was considering adding the rest of my 7.1 system without removing the subs from their stereo config (basically, part of a full range L/R speaker). My surround speakers are "small".
My reading is that I have three options:
Option 1) I could simply create an "artificial" subwoofer channel in my RME card, and bind it to the OUT channels driving the "real" subwoofers via RME TotalMix.This would be transparent to Audiolense, which would see it as a sub.
Option 2) "2. Ability use a fullrange speaker as part of a sub array." - if this feature were implemented, AL could probably route the surround bass + LFE to the L/R speakers (specifically, the subwoofer drivers of these "artificial" speakers), and achieve the same result as 1)
Option 3) Add a third physical subwoofer, independent from the current two bound to L/R channels, that takes care of surround bass + LFE.
Am I reading option 2 right?
I just published a new release of Audiolense that handles your partial subwoofer crossover configuration properly. It is looking pretty good.I was initially concerned about this. I used BEQdesigner to analyze the bass content of a few dozen multichannel recordings and I have used JRiver DSP to solo the LFE channel of many recordings. I have yet to find a recording that is degraded by the process I am using. I did find one movie that had high frequency "garbage" on the LFE channel. It could only be salvaged with a low pass filter on the LFE channel.
Interesting..I just published a new release of Audiolense that handles your partial subwoofer crossover configuration properly. It is looking pretty good.
My issue is getting front left sub-bass into the front right speaker and vice-versa. The front left and right act as full range & sub but I could not reroute bass from a full range + sub speaker.
My reply was to HerbertWest's setup, not yours :-)My issue is getting front left sub-bass into the front right speaker and vice-versa. The front left and right act as full range & sub but I could not reroute bass from a full range + sub speaker.
I have them now as small speakers. I can't rout bass to them, so, I do that in my MOTU mixer as a work around.