Any point in physically time align speaker elements?

Cyberkul

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Hi! Would there be any difference in sq if I skip physically time aligning the speaker elements when using AL XO? It would be easier to stack my horns if I don't have to make the holders adjustable.
 

juicehifi

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There’s no need for «manual» time alignment here. Audiolense takes care of it.
 

hulkss

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Try to physically position drivers so they stay time aligned (as much as possible) in all listening positions. Audiolense can only time align in one location.
 

Cyberkul

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Yes, but in that one position, would AL time align both direct and all reflected sound?
 

hulkss

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Only direct sound is time aligned. Mostly based on the impulse response from the tweeter.
 

BenToronto

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Data point

Don't laugh, but I experimented using DSP with time-aligning a Klipschorn bass (below 130 Hz) with my electrostatic panels. We're talking 16 feet. My results (and agreed by some others who posted) is it can make a small improvement in careful A-B testing, maybe.

The general issue of time alignment is something from engineering dream land where the essential requirement for alignment seems unarguable, not music listening by humans land.

BTW, in so far as there is any matching in an ESL hybrid system, a Kliipshorn bass is quite right.
 

hulkss

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Data point

Don't laugh, but I experimented using DSP with time-aligning a Klipschorn bass (below 130 Hz) with my electrostatic panels. We're talking 16 feet. My results (and agreed by some others who posted) is it can make a small improvement in careful A-B testing, maybe.

The general issue of time alignment is something from engineering dream land where the essential requirement for alignment seems unarguable, not music listening by humans land.

BTW, in so far as there is any matching in an ESL hybrid system, a Kliipshorn bass is quite right.
I have K-horns corrected and time-aligned with Audiolense digital XO. I can tell you that time alignment is worth the effort.
Most loudspeaker applications have so many other acoustic problems that the more subtle corrections are not perceivable.
 

BenToronto

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1. Your XO 400 Hz versus my 130 (tested with instant A-B switching although not blind).

2. If ever there was a speaker that had extreme alignment issues, it is the Klipschorn.

3. Speakers with hideous square wave outputs on an oscilloscope may not sound so deficient on music.
 

dhai

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I agree with hulkss that with many speakers other problems may be dominant.
But time alignment can compensate the doubling of content around the crossover frequency, as occurs for example with LR4 crossovers. This noticeably enhances clarity, but needs changes to the filter transfer function towards constant group delay characteristics.
 

Cyberkul

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I agree with hulkss that with many speakers other problems may be dominant.
But time alignment can compensate the doubling of content around the crossover frequency, as occurs for example with LR4 crossovers. This noticeably enhances clarity, but needs changes to the filter transfer function towards constant group delay characteristics.
Would Audiolense take care of all this, or is some "tuning" beneficial?
 

hulkss

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Would Audiolense take care of all this, or is some "tuning" beneficial?
Audiolense time aligns the crossovers and matches phase at the crossover frequency if you are using TTD correction. This is more problematic if using frequency only correction.
 

ChrisPercival

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I haven’t done experiments to confirm that time alignment is audible. But I do feel that when performing measurements it’s really easy to see that the crossover is smooth if there is time alignment. And I will use the delay in the dsp crosssover to accomplish this.

Physical time alignment of large horns is problematic because it can really screw up the midrange baffling. The diffraction and reflections effects seem daunting to me.

The most important thing is to understand the directivity and power response characteristic of each of the drivers and choose the proper crossover frequencies accordingly.

IMHO,

chris
 

hulkss

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You should physically align drivers so they stay aligned in different listening positions. For example, horns should be arranged vertically in the same plane. Audiolense can then align them in time for the main listening position. If you move side-to-side they will remain in acceptable alignment. If they were arranged horizontally, the timing would shift with left-right movement.
 

Jimp540

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My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha RX-V1400, MiniDSP-2x4-HD, Behringer DSP1124
Main Amp
Yamaha RX-V1400 - low biamp
Additional Amp
Crown Com-Tech 210 - high biamp
Other Amp
AudioSource AMP One - Home sub
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony DVD, Panasonic Blu-ray
Front Speakers
E/V Sentry IV
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsh and Mirage
Surround Speakers
Mirage OmniSat
Surround Back Speakers
Mirage OmniSat
Subwoofers
Polk and homemade
Other Speakers or Equipment
MiniDSP 2x4
Video Display Device
Sony SXRD rear projection
Screen
60
I have old E/V Sentry IV horns. I have replaced the E/V tweeter with a Beyma slot tweeter. I have moved the tweeter from its original bracket mount below the midrange horn to a platform over the midrange horn that allows me to physically achieve time alignment with the midrange horn. I am bi-amping the speaker so with the tweeter/mid physically aligned, I use a MiniDSP 2x4 HD to eq the folded horn bass cab and mid/tweeter feeds as well as providing delay to the mid/tweeter to electronically achieve time alignment with the bass cabinet. Since the folded horn has a very long equivalent length, the timing adjustment is significant and I find that once time aligned, imaging improves significantly but also the clarity and articulation of percussion and such is very noticeable. Not saying it sounded bad before timing, but there is a major improvement for me.
 

juicehifi

Audiolense
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Only direct sound is time aligned. Mostly based on the impulse response from the tweeter.
Actually, everything is time aligned for the time domain window.


Try to physically position drivers so they stay time aligned (as much as possible) in all listening positions. Audiolense can only time align in one location.
Yes, this is a valid point.
 

juicehifi

Audiolense
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Would Audiolense take care of all this, or is some "tuning" beneficial?
Audiolense time aligns the crossovers and matches phase at the crossover frequency if you are using TTD correction. This is more problematic if using frequency only correction.
The drivers are time aligned with frequency correction too.

If a minimum delay crossover is used, the drivers are first time aligned, then phase aligned to ensure that they add up at the crossover point.
 

Jimp540

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Joined
Apr 30, 2020
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My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha RX-V1400, MiniDSP-2x4-HD, Behringer DSP1124
Main Amp
Yamaha RX-V1400 - low biamp
Additional Amp
Crown Com-Tech 210 - high biamp
Other Amp
AudioSource AMP One - Home sub
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony DVD, Panasonic Blu-ray
Front Speakers
E/V Sentry IV
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsh and Mirage
Surround Speakers
Mirage OmniSat
Surround Back Speakers
Mirage OmniSat
Subwoofers
Polk and homemade
Other Speakers or Equipment
MiniDSP 2x4
Video Display Device
Sony SXRD rear projection
Screen
60
You should physically align drivers so they stay aligned in different listening positions. For example, horns should be arranged vertically in the same plane. Audiolense can then align them in time for the main listening position. If you move side-to-side they will remain in acceptable alignment. If they were arranged horizontally, the timing would shift with left-right movement.
Will physically aligning horns for time alignment possibly cause complications at crossover frequencies due to the shape of the wavefront coming out of the two horns? Some horns have a flatter wavefront while others may be be more spherical…Can sliding the mouth of one horn with respect to another cause phase cancellation issues as you move off axis even though on axis time alignment is good?
 

Cyberkul

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I haven’t done experiments to confirm that time alignment is audible. But I do feel that when performing measurements it’s really easy to see that the crossover is smooth if there is time alignment. And I will use the delay in the dsp crosssover to accomplish this.

Physical time alignment of large horns is problematic because it can really screw up the midrange baffling. The diffraction and reflections effects seem daunting to me.

The most important thing is to understand the directivity and power response characteristic of each of the drivers and choose the proper crossover frequencies accordingly.

IMHO,

chris
I have a 5-way setup, BR-bass, and the rest is horns. I have chosen the crossover frequencies more or less from the natural roll-off of each horn. Except the midrange-horn, where I have a larger range to play with. It is a 65cm dia LeCleach horn, and I have tried frequencies between 2,5 - 7kHz. I think it sounds best around 2,8kHz, but I don`t know how well it matches the directivity of the upper midrange LeCleach 20cm horn. I have had a look at some polar response plots of similar size horns, and it don`t look too bad.
 

Cyberkul

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You should physically align drivers so they stay aligned in different listening positions. For example, horns should be arranged vertically in the same plane. Audiolense can then align them in time for the main listening position. If you move side-to-side they will remain in acceptable alignment. If they were arranged horizontally, the timing would shift with left-right movement.
Yes, I have gotten this advice before, and I now have everything vertically aligned, except the tweeter, due to low ceilings.. Before I had the BR-bass boxes placed at the inside of the stack of horns. I also had the 4 horns more or less physically time aligned. So far I think it sounded better than my current setup, but I`m not finished with my AL-setup yet.
 
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