Amazon Music HD...anyone trying it out?

[Todd Anderson]

Level matched precisely, there shouldn't be a difference unless it's an MQA re-eq'd/remaster...and even then there may be some "difficulty" http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19396

I wonder if part of my perception that TIDAL tracks don't sound as good as CD equivalent comes from baseline volume differences.

It's really difficult to know because of bias, for sure.

 

[Glenn S]

A note on streaming service quality...

A YouTuber, White Sea Studio, did a video comparing music streaming services YouTube, Apple, Spotify, and Tidal. For the comparison he plays the streaming music service track and the original track along side each other but one is inverted. Two tracks that are identical will have no audible output (two of the same signals with one being inverted cancel each other out), more differences in the tracks produce more audible output. The list from worst to best is the same order as I listed the services in the first sentence. To me this doesn't mean that YouTube tracks sound quality is worst, it just means that the YouTube tracks have been altered the most and that the Tidal tracks are the least molested.

Here is a link to the video "Which STREAMING SERVICE SOUNDS the BEST?":

 

[Glenn S]

I've been using Amazon Music HD since Sep 19.

I'm not sure yet if I'll stick with it or go back to using Deezer HD.

Here are my disappointments with Amazon Music HD so far:
1) Huge data hog compared to all other streaming services (so far Amazon Music is using more than 6 times more data than Deezer HD).
2) No WASAPI/ASIO signal directing (also a problem with Deezer HD).
3) 500 track playlist limit.
4) The "My Soundtrack" Station is terrible. The first couple of days this was great, it played a lot of music that I really liked and it delved into some tracks that I didn't like but I expect this so it can learn what I like and don't like. But as time went on My Soundtrack just kept playing the same songs over and over and didn't expand into different genres that are represented in the My Music section. It continually plays older and newer rock/heavy metal, it plays some older and newer Country, and it delves into some older and newer Pop, no problems there. The trouble is that it is now repeating mostly all of the same tracks and never once has played any other genres that I do like (and are in My Music) such as Jazz, Fusion, Classical, New Age. I keep skipping tracks and thumbing down tracks trying to get it to play the different genres but it does not. And there is one more genre that I hate but Amazon keeps force feeding it to me.... Gangsta Nigga Thugz Rap! If you want to edit out the "N" word that's fine but those words are their words, not mine. I keep thumbing down these tracks but Amazon keeps forcing them on me, and they will try to play 15 of these tracks in a row, and then 30 mins later they try another set of 15 of this genre. But once again, Amazon refuses to delve into Jazz, Fusion, Classical, New Age, etc.

UPDATED RANT: Just been trying out My Soundtrack again for the last hour and of the 10 tracks played, 3 were from Tool. Yes I like Tool and have a few of their tracks in My Tracks, but I have thousands of different tracks and hundreds of different artists in My Tracks. "Amazon, what is so hard about playing different tracks?? There is more to life than Motley Crue, Tool, and Journey!!!"

 

[Sonnie]

Very interesting information Glenn... thanks for sharing.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I wonder if part of my perception that TIDAL tracks don't sound as good as CD equivalent comes from baseline volume differences.

It's really difficult to know because of bias, for sure.

Todd, since volume is a variable that must be accounted for in any valid comparison, it can't be discounted. The AES paper linked, with MQA files processed by himself, SQ was completely hit or miss. Exactly as predicted by Dr Lesurf http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/MQA/origami/ThereAndBack.html
Anyway, back to Amazon HD. Been using for a while, lowly getting used to GUI, seems just fine to me. Finding just about everything I looked for, including some rather obscure classical. Qobuz gone, Spotify on the chopping block.

 

[Sonnie]

I really did not take you for a classical guy AJ... really... classical?

I canceled my Tidal... still on the trial with Amazon.

 

[GFOviedo]

I mainly use Spotify and Amazon Music since I get the student discount. I get Spotify and Hulu for $4.99, and Amazon Prime, which includes Amazon music for $69.99 per year. I had to make a new email address and Amazon account to get the 90 day free trial. I have been listening for a few hours, and in all honesty, I am not sure if it is worth the $12.99 per month for the HD version.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I really did not take you for a classical guy AJ... really... classical?

Going to make fun of me liking shuffleboard and bingo next?

 

[Sonnie]

Beach bingo and shuffleboard while listening to classical music... better than some things I suppose.

 

[GFOviedo]

So, I’ve joint a Tidal group on Facebook just to see what’s going on, and then Tidal people can get pretty defensive when talking about lossless music vs Amazon HD....amazing.

 

[Jose Sifontes]

Does anyone use JRiver cloudplay? There is no subscription fees and it's all HQ .flac or better quality, but you will however, need to own a copy of JRiver before you can use the service. The major downside that I can see is the limit on full albums. I have about 300 Gigabytes worth of .flac that I'd happily upload to this user supported service, but the only way I could do that is in the form of playlists. I don't do playlists, when I'm in the mood to hear something I just want to hear that specific something, until I'm in the mood to hear something else. Anyway, it's an alternative for you guys or at least another option if any of you where otherwise unaware.

I use cloudplay at times and have never had a complaint on sound, Jriver has gone down in use for me as I use Roon more and more (still use Jriver on the video side for mkv files).

 

[Jose Sifontes]

lol... yeah... well... I do always listen to YT on the headphones... and only listened to Tidal on speakers in the listening room. Tidal might sound better on headphones. But my point here is for finding music, YT is sufficient for me. I wanted Tidal because it has been touted as high quality. IMO... it is not high quality.

There are some great YT channels for 24 bit audio music that sound very good over a decent DAC, which took me by surprise. Many of them from audiophiles based in Vietnam. Here's an example:

Audiophile Music 24 Bit

 

[brownboot247]

I will agree with AJ. I had Qobuz, Tidal and various free and paid flac players installed for my non-streaming FLACs. My current setup is PC to my Schiit Bifrost 2 via USB, balanced cables from the Bifrost 2 to my Jotunheim, and then balanced output to either my Sennies 660s, m1060's, or other headphones.

Yes, Qobuz allows you to "select" your routing preference, although if you select any internal processing via windows, it doesn't work while hooked up the way I have it. Thus it'll be AISO or WASAPI only.

No, Amazon does not show you their processing route for the signal of your music data. And with no technical response from Amazon at this point, who the heck really knows what the route is.

I'll tell you what though, when comparing the sound quality between Qobuz and Amazon HD. More often than not, does Amazon's files sound more neutral and less compressed than Qobuz. And I get it, "absense of proof..." blah blah comes down to personal preference in what you're actually doing with your music. Do you want to listen to music (maybe even critically) or do you want to measure your music. To me, as subjective we know this topic is, if it sounds better to my ears (in this case IMO its less compressed and V-shaped) then I'll go for that. As far as Amazon's UI and library goes, it beats Qobuz by a landslide even if the cost was the same.
Not looking to p anyone off, but come on... we have 0 proof about Amazon HD's process except what we hear with their files.

 

[Glenn S]

...No, Amazon does not show you their processing route for the signal of your music data. And with no technical response from Amazon at this point, who the heck really knows what the route is....
Not looking to p anyone off, but come on... we have 0 proof about Amazon HD's process except what we hear with their files.

I know the processing route with my Windows computer system. (Windows 10 computer to Onkyo AVR with an HDMI cable)
The Amazon App shows:
... TRACK QUALITY 24/96.
... DEVICE CAPABILITY 24/196 (or whatever I have the Windows audio settings set for).
... CURRENTLY PLAYING AT 24/96.
And my Onkyo AVR shows me that it is receiving a 196kHz signal.

So that's proof that the Amazon HDs process path is:
1) Amazon App.
2) Windows mixer.
3) End user device.

If I use the JRiverMC's WDM process, it also shows that the Amazon App audio is being sent to the Windows mixer.

Is the Windows mixer resampling degrading the audio? I dunno, I've just been enjoying the music. But I would rather have a bit perfect process just in case there is a difference.
I would like to use Tidal for the bit perfect process but they don't have a Flow option like Deezer, or a My Soundtrack option like Amazon Music. The Flow and My Soundtrack options are 'radio stations' that look in your lists of music and play similar music.Yes, other streaming services have similar options but they play based off of a single track (so if that track was Luke Bryan, it'll only play similar songs to Luke Bryan). Flow and My Soundtrack look at all of your music and will play based off of all of it, even different genres.
In an earlier post I was ranting concerning Amazon's My Soundtrack station being terrible. It's gotten less terrible over the last two weeks.

 

[brownboot247]

I know the processing route with my Windows computer system. (Windows 10 computer to Onkyo AVR with an HDMI cable)
The Amazon App shows:
... TRACK QUALITY 24/96.
... DEVICE CAPABILITY 24/196 (or whatever I have the Windows audio settings set for).
... CURRENTLY PLAYING AT 24/96.
And my Onkyo AVR shows me that it is receiving a 196kHz signal.

So that's proof that the Amazon HDs process path is:
1) Amazon App.
2) Windows mixer.
3) End user device.

If I use the JRiverMC's WDM process, it also shows that the Amazon App audio is being sent to the Windows mixer.

Is the Windows mixer resampling degrading the audio? I dunno, I've just been enjoying the music. But I would rather have a bit perfect process just in case there is a difference.
I would like to use Tidal for the bit perfect process but they don't have a Flow option like Deezer, or a My Soundtrack option like Amazon Music. The Flow and My Soundtrack options are 'radio stations' that look in your lists of music and play similar music.Yes, other streaming services have similar options but they play based off of a single track (so if that track was Luke Bryan, it'll only play similar songs to Luke Bryan). Flow and My Soundtrack look at all of your music and will play based off of all of it, even different genres.
In an earlier post I was ranting concerning Amazon's My Soundtrack station being terrible. It's gotten less terrible over the last two weeks.

I do agree with you that knowing of a bit perfect process that you can use is nice. It's odd, because if I set the Windows audio to 16-bit, it still says Device Capability being 24-bit, and playing in 24-bit (with Ultra HD files, 16-bit HD). In your case, you have a visual at the end user device being upsampled. So correct me if I'm wrong, but regardless of what Amazon says its playing, it doesn't matter because the resampling is happening afterwards, which in my case I can't see with my setup.

 

[Glenn S]

.... So correct me if I'm wrong, but regardless of what Amazon says its playing, it doesn't matter because the resampling is happening afterwards,...

Correct.
Whatever bitrate/samplerate my Windows Audio Control Panel is set for, the Amazon App will show the same bitrate/samplerate for Device Capability (that makes sense). But whatever samplerate my Windows Audio Control Panel is set for, my Onkyo AVR shows me that it is receiving that same samplerate, irregardless of what samplerate the Amazon App shows that it is sending out.

Now with an app/program that uses EXCLUSIVE mode such as Tidal or JRiverMediaCenter, the Windows mixer is being bypassed because my Onkyo AVR shows that the incoming samplerate changes automatically as the original audio samplerate changes, irregardless of my Windows Audio Control Panel settings.

 

[brownboot247]

Now with an app/program that uses EXCLUSIVE mode such as Tidal or JRiverMediaCenter, the Windows mixer is being bypassed because my Onkyo AVR shows that the incoming samplerate changes automatically as the original audio samplerate changes, irregardless of my Windows Audio Control Panel settings.

Correct, I busted out my THX 788 that has a screen on it and I experienced the same thing as you. So you're right. I'm glad I learned something today. I choose WASAPI whenever possible over ASIO to override windows settings.
To my ears, it still sounds better on Amazon though. Which now is tainted with this thought of hearing music that's upsampled unless I set it to 24/96, but I don't know if that's good or bad. I wish they'd push for a WASAPI option.

Thanks again.

 

[Glenn S]

...Which now is tainted with this thought of hearing music that's upsampled unless I set it to 24/96, but I don't know if that's good or bad....

Here is a test done (back in 2015) showing how bad Windows resampling is (this is Archimago's test):

MEASUREMENTS: Windows 10 "Audio Stack" / DirectSound Upsampling

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

But recently the same test was performed by another person and his results were "not actually that bad" (this is Degru's test):

Windows resampling not actually that bad?

I saw the awful measurements of Windows 10 resampling on archimago's site here: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/11/measurements-windows-10-audio-stack.html and I figured I would test this for myself. I see quite a few people pointing to that article when they say Windows resampling sucks...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I was wondering if the choice of hardware (i.e. motherboard) of the computer had an effect (affect?) on how well the Windows mixer does it's job, but another website said that because the Windows software is running the hardware, then the results of the Windows mixer is going to be the same no matter what hardware is used.

 

[GFOviedo]

There just so many things that can affect sound. I just finished watching a video of a guy somewhere in the UK / EU using an LG V30 / V40 cellphone with a DragonFly Cobalt and being able to play MQA files. He also used an iPad with the DragonFly Connalt and was able to do the same.
He preferred the iPad since he could control it wirelessly. He used Roon, Tidal and Spotify.
I’ve got an older iPad. So, I started looking for a Dragonfly Cobalt, but the cost $300 deterred me from trying it out.

 

[Glenn S]

... I just finished watching a video of a guy somewhere in the UK / EU using an LG V30 / V40 cellphone with a DragonFly Cobalt...

I like Darko's videos.
That video inspired me to try something similar for my HTC 10 phone and Amazon HD app. I already have a decent DAC with my Onkyo AVR so I just wanted to go straight from my phone into my AVR using a "USB-C to HDMI" adapter. I assumed this would send a bit perfect signal out from my phone to the AVR.
I was wrong.
My AVR is showing that all audio is being received as 48kHz, even though the Amazon HD app is showing that it is sending out different samplerates.
I'm finding that most HDMI devices resample everything to 48kHz: Chromecast Ultra, Invidia Shield TV, Roku, Fire TV. I've wondered if using the Dragonfly DAC with my phone would still resample everything to 48kHz (maybe not since it is not HDMI) but I shouldn't spend (waste) more money on this search for bit perfect path with Amazon HD.

 

[GFOviedo]

I like Darko's videos.
That video inspired me to try something similar for my HTC 10 phone and Amazon HD app. I already have a decent DAC with my Onkyo AVR so I just wanted to go straight from my phone into my AVR using a "USB-C to HDMI" adapter. I assumed this would send a bit perfect signal out from my phone to the AVR.
I was wrong.
My AVR is showing that all audio is being received as 48kHz, even though the Amazon HD app is showing that it is sending out different samplerates.
I'm finding that most HDMI devices resample everything to 48kHz: Chromecast Ultra, Invidia Shield TV, Roku, Fire TV. I've wondered if using the Dragonfly DAC with my phone would still resample everything to 48kHz (maybe not since it is not HDMI) but I shouldn't spend (waste) more money on this search for bit perfect path with Amazon HD.

I know the feeling. It makes me wondered also if there is any resampling when using my iPhone BlueSound App to play Amazon HD via my BlueSound PowerNode N150. The app shows 24 bit, but I hear no different e in sound when playing Spotify.

 

[GFOviedo]

So, I have been listening to Amazon HD vs Spotify for a few weeks now. I mainly listen to music either via iPhone XR + BlueOS app + BlueSound PowerNode N150 or from my Win 7 PC + BlueSound Controller + BlueSound PowerNode N150, and my wife and I cannot really tell the difference in sound. If there is a difference is minimal. I don't think I will be keeping Amazon HD because I am getting Spotify for $4.99 a month (Student pricing) compared to Amazon HD at $12.99.
However, this past Sunday, I turned in my last paper for school, and I am graduating with my bachelors in Business Management. It's been a long, stressful, hard road with work, school, 4 children, 1 dog, and 1 guinea pig. So, I may not get that discount anymore, but my wife still going to school. So, I'll have her get an account .

 

[Grayson Dere]

So, I have been listening to Amazon HD vs Spotify for a few weeks now. I mainly listen to music either via iPhone XR + BlueOS app + BlueSound PowerNode N150 or from my Win 7 PC + BlueSound Controller + BlueSound PowerNode N150, and my wife and I cannot really tell the difference in sound. If there is a difference is minimal. I don't think I will be keeping Amazon HD because I am getting Spotify for $4.99 a month (Student pricing) compared to Amazon HD at $12.99.
However, this past Sunday, I turned in my last paper for school, and I am graduating with my bachelors in Business Management. It's been a long, stressful, hard road with work, school, 4 children, 1 dog, and 1 guinea pig. So, I may not get that discount anymore, but my wife still going to school. So, I'll have her get an account .

Congrats on your degree in Business Management! It's wonderful to hear of individuals of all walks of life finding enjoyment through the HiFi experience I, myself still remember purchasing my first pair of speakers (Quad 22L2) when I was about to finish my degree way back when : )

 

[GFOviedo]

Congrats on your degree in Business Management! It's wonderful to hear of individuals of all walks of life finding enjoyment through the HiFi experience I, myself still remember purchasing my first pair of speakers (Quad 22L2) when I was about to finish my degree way back when : )

Thank you sir. So, I went ahead and subscribed to Qobuz 30 day free trial. I've have downloaded many HiFi files 24 bit/192 kHz and 16 bit / 44.1 kHz, and I was able to hear noticeable sound difference with most tracks at the 192 kHz and 96 kHz. At the 44.1 kHz the difference was minimal to me. My wife pretty much didn't care and stated the difference was minimal if any.

So, now I would say, if you have a HiFi expensive system, and you can afford to pay for Qobuz or Tidal HiFi monthly fee, I would say go for it. Take advantage of the sound since you've got the equipment. However, I would say the cost of $20 a month for Tidal or $14.99 for Qobuz would be questionable for someone like me--in a budget, 4 kids (they eat a lot), 1 dog (I hate this do by the way), 1 guinea pig (I didn't want it either), mortgage, credit cards, and car payment. Since, I am currently getting Hulu and Spotify for $4.99, I can't justify going with Qobuz of Tidal. Once I cannot longer get the $4.99 for Hulu + Spotify, I would say $14.99 for Qobuz is doable.