Which?! Denon X6400H or Yamaha A3070 or Marantz SR7012?

[gigicoltz]

Please, help me to choose wisely, based on your experience, reliability, value for price, etc. Thanks a lot!

 

[GFOviedo]

I’ve had experience with Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and Pioneer. I would recommend a receiver that support Dirac live!

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I am a Dirac Live fan myself... NAD is what I have, but if you are considering only those three... the 6400 would be my choice. I've had two of those three, and an older model Marantz. I much prefer Audyssey over YPAO... and I'm not much on believing the Marantz offers anything over the Denon other than price.

 

[Todd Anderson]

What kind of system are you looking to drive?

 

[gigicoltz]

I am a Dirac Live fan myself... NAD is what I have, but if you are considering only those three... the 6400 would be my choice. I've had two of those three, and an older model Marantz. I much prefer Audyssey over YPAO... and I'm not much on believing the Marantz offers anything over the Denon other than price.

Thanks for answer. No, I'm not necessarily considering only these three, they were recommended by specialists in HIFI centers in my country. I'm totally new in the field, I put a serious accent on the music listening, but movies are important as well. Beside those three, what else would be your suggestion?

 

[GFOviedo]

If you go to the Dirac Live website, they show the AVRs that support Dirac Live such as NAD, Emotiva, Arcam, Datasat, etc.

Emotiva has pretty good warranty and customer service. I’ve had experience with a few of their amps, and they have performed well.

Sonnie just recently started using NAD. I’m sure he wouldn’t mind sharing his experience with it.

 

[gigicoltz]

What kind of system are you looking to drive?

TAGA Harmony Azure F-100 V.2 + S-40 V.2 + C-40 V.2

 

[Todd Anderson]

So you have a 5.0 system? No sub, correct?

Power-wise, of the three you originally asked about, I might give the overall nod to the Yamaha RXA3070. Both the Denon and Marantz will give you access to better room correction.

Any chance you might buy a receiver and a two-channel amplifier to drive your left and right channels?

 

[gigicoltz]

So you have a 5.0 system? No sub, correct?

Power-wise, of the three you originally asked about, I might give the overall nod to the Yamaha RXA3070. Both the Denon and Marantz will give you access to better room correction.

Any chance you might buy a receiver and a two-channel amplifier to drive your left and right channels?

No, in fact is 7.1 system, with sub included. No chance to include an amp for L/R because of the space constraints. Thanks for answering.

 

[Todd Anderson]

So, just speaking about the three models you started this thread about...

If you don't think you need subwoofer equalization (meaning: you've managed to find subwoofer placement in your room that sounds tight and well integrated), I'd probably go with the Yamaha. It holds an edge in the power category.

If you do think think your subwoofer needs some help in the EQ department, then I'd go with the Denon 6500H. It offers slightly less native power than the Yamaha... BUT gives you access to Audyssey which will do a much better job helping your subwoofer to sound clean and tight. The Audyssey app (which costs about $30) also gives you ability to set a frequency range for correction (so you can tell Audyssey to only analyze and correct for frequencies below 500Hz). The 6500H also gives you access to Auro 2D processing, which (in my opinion) is significantly better than stereo upmixing solutions offered by Dolby and DTS. Of course, like the Yamaha, the 6500H also offers Dolby and DTS upmixing... but the Yamaha doesn't have Auro onboard. And, since you're in Europe, you have way better access to Auro 3D content (if you ever decide to go that route).

Additionally, Denon comes with the free wireless HEOS app, which I've used extensively with the Marantz 7012. If you stream wireless music, HEOS is a great solution.

Interface and usability-wise... I think both brands are nearly neck and neck. Very user-friendly. I might actually prefer Yamaha's user interface slightly more. But, not enough to make it a deal breaker.

 

[gigicoltz]

So, just speaking about the three models you started this thread about...

If you don't think you need subwoofer equalization (meaning: you've managed to find subwoofer placement in your room that sounds tight and well integrated), I'd probably go with the Yamaha. It holds an edge in the power category.

If you do think think your subwoofer needs some help in the EQ department, then I'd go with the Denon 6500H. It offers slightly less native power than the Yamaha... BUT gives you access to Audyssey which will do a much better job helping your subwoofer to sound clean and tight. The Audyssey app (which costs about $30) also gives you ability to set a frequency range for correction (so you can tell Audyssey to only analyze and correct for frequencies below 500Hz). The 6500H also gives you access to Auro 2D processing, which (in my opinion) is significantly better than stereo upmixing solutions offered by Dolby and DTS. Of course, like the Yamaha, the 6500H also offers Dolby and DTS upmixing... but the Yamaha doesn't have Auro onboard. And, since you're in Europe, you have way better access to Auro 3D content (if you ever decide to go that route).

Additionally, Denon comes with the free wireless HEOS app, which I've used extensively with the Marantz 7012. If you stream wireless music, HEOS is a great solution.

Interface and usability-wise... I think both brands are nearly neck and neck. Very user-friendly. I might actually prefer Yamaha's user interface slightly more. But, not enough to make it a deal breaker.

Thank you again for your answer. I hope I fully understand your lines. But I have two more questions, if I may:
1) 5 of HIFI specialists I asked in Romania (same questions as above) , without knowing each other (they are distributors for many companies or audition showroom owners,etc) insisted on Yamaha A3070 because of the large rate of technical failures for Denon/Marantz family; plus than that they reported that sound in Denon/Marantz is much more un-natural than in Yamaha, etc. That confuses me supplemental.
2. Why are you recommending 6500h, instead of 6400h? Is there such important difference in sound or features or build quality in order to deserve 6500H over 6400H? I put this question because theoretically 6400H should have a better price than 6500H right now.

Yes, I use HEOS right now, it is a nice app and feature. Do not know yet how is functioning similar MusicCast form Yamaha.

Thank you for such a fruitful conversation.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Does anyone carry NAD over your way? Look at Wayne's review here: https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/nad-t-758-v3-a-v-surround-sound-receiver-review.3426/

This is an awesome receiver/processor.

Denon and Marantz are very popular and I don't think there is any proof anywhere that they are having excessive technical issues with either... and certainly not any more than Yamaha. Personally, I just don't see how Yamaha keeps up with Denon when it come to sound... as Audyssey is so much better than YPAO. Until YPAO gets to the same resolution level as Audyssey and starts dealing better with subwoofers, they are going to fall behind for those who really care about how their music sounds. Furthermore... there is nothing unnatural sounding about Denon/Marantz... these are all going to sound the same outside of processing, which is where the differences are going to be quite noticeable. If you are a music listener, I would not recommend anything without Audyssey or Dirac Live... period... at least not if you really want you music dialed in at the listening position. For me it would not be as big of a deal on movies... as long as my bass is in good shape, which is where YPAO is going to fail you the most.

 

[Todd Anderson]

First off: I think you're fine buying the 6400H. It will definitely give you cost savings since the 6500H is the newer model (assuming you can find the 6400H on sale). What you'll miss is the "IMAX Enhanced" capabilities of the 6500H. But what that means in terms of actual real world impact and performance is a complete unknown at this point (and we won't know more for many months).

I echo much of what Sonnie says. At their very base (with no processing engaged), you'd have – in my opinion – an impossible task of hearing any difference between the three receivers. That can change as you push them to very high volume levels (and amp sections are pushed to their extremes)... the receiver with more power will give you a cleaner experience. I know for a fact that the Yamaha can push a great audio show... actual power is abundant.

Sound will definitely change once you introduce room correction and the various sound processing modes offered by the various brands. That's why I mentioned Auro 2D... if you enjoy engaging surround sound upmixing to your stereo music, Auro 2D is incredible.

I also think Audyssey is superior to YPAO because of bass management (if you need it). To sort of answer Sonnie's non-question about room correction, I've talked directly to reps from most companies about their choices in correction packages and asked about what customers want. My take home is that the majority of buyers don't use the correction packages. And, of course, there are licensing dollars attached to products such as Audyssey and Dirac.

Since you use HEOS, perhaps the 6400H/6500H is something you give strong consideration to.

You asked about quality: I've not heard about big differences in durability between any of these brands. Of course, you can scour the internet and find buyers complain about nearly everything... and you could end up with a piece of gear that has issues no matter which brand you but! ;-) But I wouldn't think twice about buying Yamaha, Denon, or Marantz. I'm not entirely why the sales reps are telling that –– could be that they have extra stock of a certain model and they've been instructed to funnel customers to it? Not sure.

 

[gigicoltz]

First off: I think you're fine buying the 6400H. It will definitely give you cost savings since the 6500H is the newer model (assuming you can find the 6400H on sale). What you'll miss is the "IMAX Enhanced" capabilities of the 6500H. But what that means in terms of actual real world impact and performance is a complete unknown at this point (and we won't know more for many months).

I echo much of what Sonnie says. At their very base (with no processing engaged), you'd have – in my opinion – an impossible task of hearing any difference between the three receivers. That can change as you push them to very high volume levels (and amp sections are pushed to their extremes)... the receiver with more power will give you a cleaner experience. I know for a fact that the Yamaha can push a great audio show... actual power is abundant.

Sound will definitely change once you introduce room correction and the various sound processing modes offered by the various brands. That's why I mentioned Auro 2D... if you enjoy engaging surround sound upmixing to your stereo music, Auro 2D is incredible.

I also think Audyssey is superior to YPAO because of bass management (if you need it). To sort of answer Sonnie's non-question about room correction, I've talked directly to reps from most companies about their choices in correction packages and asked about what customers want. My take home is that the majority of buyers don't use the correction packages. And, of course, there are licensing dollars attached to products such as Audyssey and Dirac.

Since you use HEOS, perhaps the 6400H/6500H is something you give strong consideration to.

You asked about quality: I've not heard about big differences in durability between any of these brands. Of course, you can scour the internet and find buyers complain about nearly everything... and you could end up with a piece of gear that has issues no matter which brand you but! ;-) But I wouldn't think twice about buying Yamaha, Denon, or Marantz. I'm not entirely why the sales reps are telling that –– could be that they have extra stock of a certain model and they've been instructed to funnel customers to it? Not sure.

Thank you, Todd, for your detailed and frank answer. The story of my trip in the AVRs world begun a year ago with a Denon X2300W and a 5.1 Taga system (2 levels down in their list from my present system). I found the sound beautiful at that time, detailed and crisp, live and full of meaning, if I may say so. Only after a 3-4 months, I decided (stimulated by an commercial drop in prices for some Marantz models) to aquire a Marants SR6012 and the new Taga 7.1 system I mentioned somewhere above. But....I was really disappointing: the quality of audition dropped significantly, both in music and movies, as well. I bought this SR6012 because I'm a music listener and I have read that Marantz (supplemental than Denon) put some HDAM modules specifically for music and that Marantz AVRs are more inclined to music than to movies, etc. I did a big mistake, because anything I did in terms of audio calibration was in vane: not every minute the sound it was not in any way close to the Denon's sound. So I remained unsatisfied and sad about that and I'm planning to change this AVR SR6012 with something much more alive and crisp and powerful. SR 6012 appear to be weak in power terms, muffled in sound, etc. Oh, and its price was more than double compared with X2300W....

 

[Todd Anderson]

It's hard to say what was driving your disappointing experience. You're sure the setup (post Audyssey calibration was relatively the same?). It could be available power and change in speakers was really sticking out to your ears! Although I'm surprised you're experiencing that drastic of a difference.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I would definitely say there is something going on with the setup... speaker placement, Audyssey, etc. Could be a multiple of issues... hard to say, but you should only notice subtle differences in music and movies with everything is setup properly.

 

[Zukaka]

Even though Yamaha has more watts per channel Denon has got significantly bigger power supply, so I would still go with Denon out of these two.
Between Denon and Marantz not really a big difference. Denon has more channels though.

You can check these links for comparison between them:
https://www.zkelectronics.com/compa..../Yamaha-Aventage-RX-A3070/U.S.A.-and-Canada/
https://www.zkelectronics.com/compare/Denon-AVR-X6400H/U.S.A./Marantz-SR7012/U.S.A./
https://www.zkelectronics.com/compa...3070/U.S.A.-and-Canada/Marantz-SR7012/U.S.A./

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Thanks Zukaka... that's a very useful comparison tool.

 

[ddude003]

Nice comparison tool indeed... And you many want to look a little closer at the power supply specs... I think the tool may be misleading... Power supply ratings, efficiency and load consumption are all to be considered... As should Transformer types used...

 

[Zukaka]

Nice comparison tool indeed... And you many want to look a little closer at the power supply specs... I think the tool may be misleading... Power supply ratings, efficiency and load consumption are all to be considered... As should Transformer types used...

I think power supply specs are more important than the amplifier specs. It seems like the manufacturers cheat on the amplifier specs but give correct numbers for power supplies. You can see even 140 W 9 channel a/v receivers still having 200 W power supplies and they honestly write it in user manuals.

When I was choosing an a/v receiver I went with Denon AVR-X7200WA instead of Yamaha RX-A3060 mainly because of the power supply.

 

[ddude003]

I think power supply specs are more important than the amplifier specs. It seems like the manufacturers cheat on the amplifier specs but give correct numbers for power supplies. You can see even 140 W 9 channel a/v receivers still having 200 W power supplies and they honestly write it in user manuals.

When I was choosing an a/v receiver I went with Denon AVR-X7200WA instead of Yamaha RX-A3060 mainly because of the power supply.

I hope you are happy with your system... My point was that not all information is an exact apples to apples comparison... And its the little things that sometimes count... Even in your above example you quote "140 W 9 channel" and missed the "with 2 channels driven" caveat... A 200 Watt Power Supply that is 80% efficient might manage 140 Watts, into 2 channels, just fine... What really happens with power management when all channels are driven... Power Supply efficiency matters... Don't get me wrong, I am not saying you made a bad choice... Only that when making comparisons we keep our eyes wide open...

 

[Jack]

Thank you for this think piece about different AVRs. I have used products from all of the brands posted and I tend to like them all. My last purchase was a Denon 4520 and it was a powerhouse on an AVR, but it kept breaking. Please not that I bought as refurbished and is had some issues. It still works but cannot due room corrections so well anymore and I decided not to pay for further repairs and will have to sell as is. I bought next a Marantz 6012 and I really like it. It seems to be a tad more laid back in its music reproduction but to me it sounds great. NAD and Yamaha are both excellent choices to be sure. I honestly do not think you can go wrong with any choice.