Tekton says It's NOT Suing Anybody... Breaks the seal on reviewers that measure speakers

Todd Anderson

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This is quite the story... Tekton, apparently, has been wrestling with some issues with a few reviewers. This opens a whole can of worms: reviewers publishing highly scientific measurements contradicting what a company claims in specs (or have measured in-house) or claiming to be a truth about a product's real-world performance.

Let's talk about this.


Here's Tekton's response so far:



 
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chrapladm

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Well, glorifying and or manipulating test result have always been a standard in speaker manufacturers basic information. Some are just better at giving real results and not stretching the truth. Such as JTR, Seaton Sound and JBL. QSC and DSL arent too bad either.

But attempting to sue reviewers could only hurt there future, I think.
 

Todd Anderson

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There's definitely that side to the story, where the marketing machine outpaces reality... you're right. It's been a problem in the industry.
 

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Hmmm... interesting. I have not read Amir's review, but I would think he would want to go back and measure, just as Eric has explained, to confirm. And... now that Eric is going to publish all the measurements for his speakers, he could certainly show how he arrived at those measurements to contradict what Amir measured. I wonder, too, if Amir's measurement contradicts other reviewers' measurements. I certainly wouldn't want a manufacturer calling me out in this manner, and if I were Eric, I certainly wouldn't call anyone out unless I knew I was 100% accurate in my claims, otherwise it discredits one or the other.
 

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Maybe I'm confused. He mentioned Erin and Amir... so both reviewed, and Eric claims both were improper. Erin has already stated he was removing his review until he could get the feet and remeasure.

Man... several of those guys (members) over at ASR are brutal on manufacturers (Eric in this case), automatically assuming the worst before anything has been proven one way or another at the point of their comments. It's guilty until proven innocent over there.
 
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This shows that measurements, and not always the actual sound, have a significant influence on people's buying. Eric claims his sales dropped off for the M-Lore after the review. Yet, people were buying them previously based on the way they sounded or based on how others stated they sounded. Once the measurements were published, sales took a dive. Those who would have purchased based on sound no longer want them because of measurements? If it's as bad as the measurements that Amir and Erin provided, it makes me wonder what people thought they were hearing that they thought was so good for so many years.

So... maybe the buy based on these kind of comments in a speaker review:

1712848748392.png


So... did Amir's measurements influence what he heard? His comments AFTER the measurements.

The objective failures of the Mini Lore are pretty obvious. While the speaker is a decade old (?), all of this was known then as well as now. The flaws directly translated to subjective listening tests presenting an unpleasant, boosted upper bass, lower treble. Equalization helped a lot but there are many more faults than my attempt there. The main positive here is the larger cabinet relative to a bookshelf speaker allowing higher dynamics and a bit more deep bass response. Otherwise, I can't see any redeeming characteristics.
Competition has little to worry about.

I can't recommend the Tekton M-Lore speaker.

Listen first... make your comments on what you hear... THEN do the measurements, if your hearing is that good, the measurements should confirm what you hear. Otherwise, as most professionals suggest, our measurements can cause a bias in what we hear.

In reading reviews on Stereophile, isn't this what they do? They listen, write their review, then measure? I don't know, but I'd be curious to know. Maybe @Kal Rubinson can confirm.
 
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Sonnie

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It's coming together now why several are chomping on Eric... he has failed to furnish any measurements to prove his claims and this is six months afterwards. This is from Amir:
As of this date, April 11, 2024, despite promising otherwise, company has NOT provided any measurements of any kind for this speaker. I have repeatedly asked Eric Alexander both in emails and in this thread to do so but he has refused. Yet, he has demanded that I delete the review or he would litigate against me and ask for damages. Until such time that he proves with measurements that he has a case, this review will stand.
 
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This shows that measurements, and not always the actual sound, have a significant influence on people's buying. Eric claims his sales dropped off for the M-Lore after the review. Yet, people were buying them previously based on the way they sounded or based on how others stated they sounded. Once the measurements were published, sales took a dive. Those who would have purchased based on sound no longer want them because of measurements? If it's as bad as the measurements that Amir and Erin provided, it makes me wonder what people thought they were hearing that they thought was so good for so many years.

So... maybe the buy based on these kind of comments in a speaker review:

View attachment 69862
Also interesting context, Andrew does not seem willing to review Tekton speakers anymore, very quiet about why, speculation that it's because Eric has done this to other reviewers in the past.

Maybe it's all semantics and crossed wires. Maybe it's he said/she said. Maybe it's dialing things back because it's become a huge PR nightmare.

IMO Eric's handling of these situations is having a greater negative impact on the company than the measurements themselves. Erin's review was largely positive, he was impressed at the price/performance.
 

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Yeah... sounds like Eric might could have handled this all differently, as it definitely appears to be affecting his character.

Is the M-Lore the same as the Model Lore? If so, these were in our $1,000 speaker evaluation event, and here is what we all had to say about them back in 2017.

Wayne's Observations:

Impressions:


The Tekton Model Lores surprised me. I knew very little about them, and - for no particular reason - had placed no expectations on them. When they ended up performing extremely well, I was knocked out altogether.

Soundstage and Imaging:

The Model Lores gave an absolutely monstrous soundstage. If anything, it was pushing at the walls and ceiling, asking for more space to fill with sound.

The imaging was eye-opening. The sounds recorded with tightest imaging were presented the size of a pea, practically pinpoint sharp. In a soundstage that large, the effect was baffling. Voices seemed carved from the air by lasers. Cindy's vocals on Ain't It A Shame originated from a point source.

In discussions about imaging there are those who will say they prefer softer imaging because it is more like natural sound sources, which usually have some size to them. A singer is not a point source, since they have sound radiating from their face, throat, and chest. Why not have an image that large?

My disagreement is not that a larger image sounds bad. It sounds wonderful if it was recorded to sound that way. But a voice recorded by a single microphone and handled properly through the recording and mastering process can sound like a point source in the recording, and that is the way I want to hear it, not "fluffed up" by poor driver matching to sound bigger. The Model Lores were doing their job, and I loved it. The effect was a sense of realism that had the psycho-acoustical brain wondering if Cindy had been transported to the room by the Tektons. In my experience, only the sharpest imaging can accomplish that delightful little trick. Well done, Lores.

Soundstage development and cohesiveness were natural and convincing, very true to life. The Tektons completely disappeared in the sound field.

Frequency Response:

Let us start with the bass. Phil's kick drum on I Don't Care Any More had depth and power that punched right in the gut, almost feeling like there was a subwoofer involved. The genie's deep voice on Three Wishes was especially powerful, like he was speaking to us through the ground. The bass seemed tight and well defined. Not quite as refined as it might be - there was sometimes a sense that something was missing, but I could never identify what it was - but not worthy of major complaint, either. Bass for bass lovers.

The peak just below 2 KHz was like a definition laser. Details in voices and instruments were laid bare, nothing could hide from the Lores. It could be a little much after awhile, though, slightly fatiguing. With more time to play with them, we might have found an off-axis setup that tamed that peak without sacrificing the monstrous soundstage and laser imaging. As it was, the forwardness of that peak was one small negative for a pair of speakers whose assessment was adding up to mostly big positives.

Physical and Visual:

For some reason I think of an old Victrola horn when I see the Lores, with the large woofer at the top. Their appearance is somewhat atypical for tower speakers, but in no way unattractive.

Overall Listening Experience:

The Tekton Model Lores have so many great qualities going for them, I find myself wishing for the chance to work with them again. I would love the chance to try to find a setup with the same monstrous soundstage and laser imaging, and with that midrange "details" peak just slightly tamed.

What These Speakers Are Best For:

There are no limits for the Model Lores. They needed to be spaced away from the LP, so might not be the best choice for a small room. And the midrange might get out of hand in a very live room. In a larger, deadened room, they have surprises in store. Who knows, maybe there is a sweeter-still sweet position waiting to be discovered, with perfect midrange AND all the rest!


Leonard's Observations:

I was excited to hear these and expecting them to wow me based upon what I have read about Tekton in general. They did not disappoint. These would compete with the Klipsch and Magnepan as my favorites in the second tier of speakers. They are very dynamic and lively-sounding and frankly, fun to listen to. I found them only a little bright, and lacking only a little detail compared to the Arx and ML. The bass was full sounding, perhaps a bit lacking in detail and tubby in the 50-70Hz range, but not tiring. They seemed to handle the blues guitar of Kenny Wayne Shepherd better than most of the other speakers. Anyone who says that reproducing the unnatural sound of an electric guitar is an incidental feature of speakers will get argument from me. I like a Strat to sound like a Strat, not a Les Paul. There is something to be said for being able to produce distortion precisely, which is much of what electric guitars are about. I suspect it is partially the sensitivity and dynamics, and partially being able to handle complexity in the signal. The detail on acoustic guitar and strings from a deep bass to violin was impressive. With the high efficiency of this speaker, it is very versatile and would be something one would be happy with for a long time under many system conditions.

Quenten's Observations:

Let's just say I was getting pumped now. Every speaker thus far had outdone the previous one hands down, and now here were the Tekton Lore's, very respected speakers with many good reviews. Placement went quickly and yielded a nice, wide soundstage, but just not as full as the ML's or A5's. By no means bad, just not quite as full, something that would be easy to miss without this kind of comparison. I also noticed a slight drop off in the tonal quality of male vocals. This was not apparent at all with female vocals. Bass response was a bit dull as well with the bass melodies in the Supertramp album (synthesizer generated). Track #1 "School" has a very nice bass melody at about 4:50 that I like to use for this test, as it is a very revealing passage. Taking my turn in the back showed a slightly more diminished soundstage (off-axis response). While it did encompass the speakers, it fell short reaching out to the walls.


Sonnie's Observations:

The Lore's were probably the most intriguing speaker of the bunch for me, simply because they seem to have gotten a lot of attention recently and their big brother, the Pendragon, has scored serious acclamations from a few reviewers.

Imaging and soundstage was pretty good on the Lores… probably as good of imaging as I have heard in any of the speakers. The bass was to die for in my opinion… I loved it. I wish all of them had this bass, as it was the only bass I really felt.

On the B-52’s Ain't It A Shame and Revolution Earth I thought the voice was a little sharp. I tried toeing the speaker out a little to compensate, but not only did the soundstage and image suffer, it did not really help.

With Nickel Creek's Ode To A Butterfly the imaging was very defined, but not quite as deep as what I have heard on a few other speakers.

The bass on Phil Collin’s I Don’t Care Anymore was cool. I had not really commented much on this song thus far... and it was pretty good on most of the speakers, yet was a step above on the Lore's.

Once again, the bass on Pink Floyd's Dogs Of War sounded sub-like, almost like we had a small 8-10” sub in the room, yet the sax was a bit bright.

On Roger Water's Three Wishes the genie was again amazing sounding and although I feared the guitar might be too edgy, it was really good and sounded about as good as it had sounded with any of the speakers.

I thought the Lore's really brought the bass extension, and perhaps having the larger dynamic driver and being the most sensitive of all the speakers, this made sense. The major issue I had was how bright they were. We thought tilting them up a bit might help, but it made them brighter for me. It did not seem like anything we did was helping tame the brightness. Had these speakers been smoother through that upper midrange area, they could have easily stole the show. I truly look forward to listening to... and perhaps reviewing the Pendragon model at a later date, but I think the Model Lore's might need some taming before I could live with them.
 

Sonnie

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This is why it's so important to listen to speakers in your own room and not rely on other's measurements in all cases. I don't refuse to buy speakers based on reviews and measurements, although I may be more eager to buy them based on good reviews. I prefer to get the speaker, listen in my setup, and then tune it with Dirac Live, which, in my opinion, can change what I hear up to a very drastic point and fix room issues. Let's face it... no one is going to be listening to these in a perfect anechoic chamber or in a setting where the sound is going to be the same as what a Klippel measures. The room will have an influence, so the response you hear at your listening position may be similar to what the Klippel measured on the M-Lore.

Obviously... I don't have much to say about all of this. :sarcastic:
 
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This is all very interesting to me. I’ve never heard of Tekton before and I’ve only recently been made aware that there was a problem when Gene over at Audioholics made a video about this supporting Erin. I see Eric’s point that his speakers weren’t measured in the right conditions, but I also see Amir’s point that his review will stand until he receives Eric’s measurements. I feel like this would have all gone away months ago if Eric would have shared his data.
In the end though, @Sonnie is completely correct. Listen to the speakers first. If you love ‘em, great. Go enjoy them and stop worrying so much about the measurements.
 

Calypso

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This is all very interesting to me. I’ve never heard of Tekton before and I’ve only recently been made aware that there was a problem when Gene over at Audioholics made a video about this supporting Erin. I see Eric’s point that his speakers weren’t measured in the right conditions, but I also see Amir’s point that his review will stand until he receives Eric’s measurements. I feel like this would have all gone away months ago if Eric would have shared his data.
In the end though, @Sonnie is completely correct. Listen to the speakers first. If you love ‘em, great. Go enjoy them and stop worrying so much about the measurements.
I think we all have our own decision making processes and understanding measurements for me is an indication of quality of design and is important and best done by a 3rd party. Whether those design deficiencies are relevant to me or for that matter, perceptible is also important.

Finally to @Sonnie point from earlier, the true appreciation of your purchase can only be assessed in its final listening environment properly room corrected. This manufacturer it seems has not posted in-depth measurements and methods that allow their system to be independently evaluated and it remains to be seen how 4 small holes that were not plugged will effect the re-measurements.

In an ideal world, the measurements done by the likes of folks at ASR are an opportunity for a manufacturer to improve their products and reach an even wider (critical) audience. Some have and some have not!
 

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I’m a Patreon supporter of Erin. I read the review and watched the video Erin did before he took it down. It was neither derogatory nor favorable.

Eric at Tekton threatened “litigation “. Now Eric says (in Youtube video in post one) “litigation “ doesn’t mean sue. Huh. I call foul.

So, Tekton said Erin’s measurements were faulty because he measured the speakers without their feet. The feet were not provided to Erin by the speaker’s owner. Tekton (Eric) claimed (and this is posted On Erin’s Patreon) that because there are through holes in the cabinet where the missing feet go, the measurements would change. (the tone of said letter is not flattering of Erin and does not reflect well on it’s author, in my opinion.). Erin has now remeasured with the feet in place and the measurements didn’t change.

Also, Erin always listens to the speaker, in some cases for days, before he measures them. His reviews have both subjective observations and objective data. Where possible he will point out specific parts of the data that support his subjective observations.

For me, the issue at hand is whether or not professional reviewers should be subject to lawsuits if a manufacturer doesn’t like it. This to me is different than a review that has incorrect data, in which case the reviewer should correct the mistake and publish same. Much the same as news outlets used to do when they got a story wrong. Other than that, so long as there is no malicious intent, it’s first amendment in the USA, the way I see it.

I doubt this will go any further now that Eric of Tekton appears to be backtracking. The community uproar and bad publicity was, I’m sure, more than he bargained for.
 

Mike Schramm

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Genuinely don’t know the answer to this: if someone posts factual information backed up with legitimate data, can the manufacturer claim it is libel?
 

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Genuinely don’t know the answer to this: if someone posts factual information backed up with legitimate data, can the manufacturer claim it is libel?
They can claim it, but if it's factual information and backed by legitimate data, they will likely not be successful, and would even more likely be talked out of filing a libel suit by their attorney.

Libel is by definition "a published false statement that is damaging to a person's reputation; a written defamation"
 

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Genuinely don’t know the answer to this: if someone posts factual information backed up with legitimate data, can the manufacturer claim it is libel?

I guess the question here is the data accurate? If it’s not accurate, then you could absolutely leave yourself open to damages (I’d assume).
 

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Proving it would be a monumental nightmare. You'd have to recreate the measurement scenario and convince a jury there was intent to harm. The only thing that would come out of it is a couple of attorneys would make a few bucks if there happened to be one that would even take a case like this to begin with, which I highly doubt.
 

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It would be ideal if there were some sort of way to quantifiably correlate specific measurements to quality of sound, particularly with measurements associated with AVRs.

If you have two receivers that measure differently, with one producing measurements that are identified as bad… can the “bad” AVR reliably be identified in a blind listening session?

There are also other issues potentially at play:

Is reviewer in possession of a so-called “golden review sample?”

Are the measurements correct?
 
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Todd Anderson

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Proving it would be a monumental nightmare. You'd have to recreate the measurement scenario and convince a jury there was intent to harm. The only thing that would come out of it is a couple of attorneys would make a few bucks if there happened to be one that would even take a case like this to begin with, which I highly doubt.

That so true, Sonnie. It would cost a fortune and the only winners would be the lawyers.
 

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Is reviewer in possession of a so-called “golden review sample?”
I would not doubt this has been the case in times past. I think it would be more along the lines of electronics though, not so much speakers. I think speakers would be harder to cherry-pick.
 

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And after watching Eric’s video in post #1 once again my opinion has changed slightly. My opinion is he is more disingenuous than I first thought.
 

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I would not doubt this has been the case in times past. I think it would be more along the lines of electronics though, not so much speakers. I think speakers would be harder to cherry-pick.

I've heard stories...
 

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Erin has remeasured. He also shares correspondence between he and Eric of Tekton.


"In the grand scheme of things, was that even audible? No"

Then why is the measurement important? Well, it becomes important because data is viewed as a definitive marker of performance.

I like the fact that data is out there, but it's a very slippery slope because there are a lot of folks who will elevate it beyond how the speaker may or may not sound in a room.

Note: I say this, but keep in mind that I stand with Erin on this one. I don't think he's done anything wrong, and he's being fully transparent. Perhaps this entire issue could have been avoided with a courtesy viewing of his review before it went live... and definitely would have been avoided if Tekton had approached him differently.

Quite a story
 
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