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Hutzpah

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Hope it's alright to ask this here.
Could someone please have a quick look at my mdat file?

After many years doing music as a hobby in small bed rooms. I have finally moved the studio to a much larger room and spent a lot of time making sound absorbers, to reign in the echo.
What are your thoughts on the test file. Its was played in reaper captured in REW.
Thanks
 

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thothsong

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One thing that strikes me is you have 75% THD at 108.6 Hz. Your measurement was taken at a fairly low volume level, you might want to measure at a higher level to give you better separation from the noise floor. If this is a combined L+R sweep, it might be useful to see the individual sweeps.
 

sam_adams

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It would be most helpful if you told us what speakers you are measuring and if you have a subwoofer(s) employed. Room dimensions and speaker distance to the MLP and room boundaries would be helpful, also. You may want to make individual measurements of the right and left speaker to eliminate some of the comb filtering in the measurements.

The frequency response shows what might be an SBIR effect around 109 Hz:

fr.png


The dip in the response between 80 Hz and 120 Hz is probably SBIR from both speakers combined. Therefore, measuring separately will isolated each speaker's response. The dip in response there is reflected in the spectrogram plot:

spec.png


Reflection control seems to be fairly well handled as most of the early reflections are right about at the limit of audibility or below in the first 20 ms:

fir.png


Overall RT60 variability is fairly well managed in the critical 300 Hz to 4 KHz band:

rt60.png
 

Hutzpah

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thothsong
1 “One thing that strikes me is you have 75% THD at 108.6 Hz. Your measurement was taken at a fairly low volume level...” 2 “If this is a combined L+R sweep...”

Hutzpah
Your rightthothsong, I decided to set the levels at my normal mixing level.
Which very well might be a bit low but I thought that would be the correct level as the sound reflection
are related to the volume.

sam_adams
1 “It would be most helpful if you told us what speakers you are measuring and if you have a subwoofer(s) employed”
2 Room dimensions
3 The frequency response shows what might be an SBIR effect around 109 Hz

Hutzpah
1 The speakers in use are acoustic studio monitor series 3311 with no sub-woofer.
Very cheap and old I think.
2 I’m not even going to try and measure this room as it got a dining room and kitchen on one
side, plus hallway and an odd sloping ceiling. I did my best to find a listening position in the
centre of the chaos.

3 Yes, I think your right. Both speakers are close to a walls but its the best I could do
as its a living room that I invaded.

Sorry not sure what MPL means?


I am glad you think the “Reflection control seems to be fairly well handled”.
The clarity in this room is amazing compared to what I’m use to.

I appreciated the commentsthothsong andsam_adams
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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ddude003

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@Hutzpah had said: "I have finally moved the studio", "speakers in use are acoustic studio monitor series 3311" and "my normal mixing level"... This leads me to believe that your main use case is likely mixing & mastering in a near filed situation... Which may explain much of the above...
 

Hutzpah

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Thanks Wayne, I got it “MLP = main listening position.”

Hi ddude003
Yes your right, this is a small home studio where I am mixing & mastering in a near field situation. Speakers placed 1300mm (just over 4ft).

I think I have managed to stop most of the reflections from the solid wood walls
with the 4 inch sound absorbers I made. But still find it hard to understand the data REW is giving.

What do you think is the REW information meeting a minimum requirement
to mix and master music in?

Maybe I need to have another go at finding a better MLP.
Thanks for commenting.
 

ddude003

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The de facto standard for a well behaved studio control room is +/- 3db from flat at 75db to 85db with RT60s of between 0.2 and 0.4 seconds... Of course this can vary this to suit your environment... What counts is how things translate into the rest of the consumer listening world... How does it sound with airPods, iPhones, boomboxes, headphones, consumer stereo/avr systems, audiophile systems, car systems, etc...

REW is well suited to measuring these pseudo-requirements...
 
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Hutzpah

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ddude003

Wrote: “The de facto standard for a well behaved studio control room is +/- 3db from flat at 75db to 85db with RT60s of between 0.2 and 0.4“

Hutzpah
I agree, from my recent Google study on the subject. Profession studios aim for +/- 3db and from what I have read: home studios
try and make +/- 5db.
This whole subject is confusing to a newbie as “flat response” is maybe not the best terminology.
I must say REW is cool software spitting out very consistent data.
Thanks for chiming in on the conversation.

I did some more testing as best I could with furniture in the room.
Then moved the orientation of the studio. It took all day.
The best I can get for now is +/- 5dp between 38hz to 16,050Khz.
In this test result I get +/-3.5dp between 41hz to 15,000Khz all taken at 70db.
Most reverb is just above 200ms on the spectrogram.
 
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ddude003

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It looks like you are pretty much in the pocket... You might now want to take a look at room/house curves... Adjustments to your flat response to suite your taste... After all you are the mixmaster... Take a look at https://www.bksv.com/media/doc/17-197.pdf and google Harmon House Curve(s)...
And if you do any recording/tracking you would want to look closely at any sound/noise ingress...
 
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Chris A

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What are your thoughts on the test file.
I think it's both brave (on your part) and refreshing (from my vantage point) to ask this sort of question and post a full .mdat file for others to examine and comment on.

From my perspective--which I'll admit is a bit more toward hi-fi goals than perhaps many others--I see the following areas that I comment on below--as if I were helping someone remotely dial-in their setup using REW and a DSP crossover (multi-amping to achieve one acoustic driver "way" per amplifier channel).

Note that I'm also assuming that your mixing/mastering standard is not a typical popular music standard of compressing the tracks by 4-15 dB and "limiting" (clipping) the tracks an additional 1-4 dB. Instead, I'm assuming a more reasonable goal of no additional compression used if the tracks have a crest factor of 14-16 dB and no limiting used at all, which in my experience is always audible and causes listening fatigue in any amount.

You didn't mention how far the microphone was from the front baffle of the loudspeaker, so I'll assume it was about 1m, which is my personal preference for these sort of measurements.

SPL response:

Your transfer function plot, i.e., SPL and phase, shows a characteristic of slightly lower SPL from ~350 Hz to 4.3 kHz, which is about 1.5 dB low, making your SPL plot look a little bit "smiley face". If you're correcting your loudspeakers using DSP and if your goal is mixing/mastering, I'd push that midrange/lower treble range up by approximately that amount relative to the two other ends of the spectrum--else the results of your work will reflect what you hear in your studio.

Phase response:

As is typical for passive crossover loudspeakers, the excess phase growth exceeds 3100 degrees across the audible band, which REW cannot plot due to the extreme limits of the phase data. That's really audible even if your loudspeaker doesn't do a very good job of directivity control (especially when considering that you listening distance of ~4 feet, which minimizes room boundary reflections, even for cone and dome-type drivers). Here is a phase plot of a loudspeaker that I helped dial-in recently using only IIR (regular) filters in a DSP crossover (no FIR filters used):

K-402-MEH phase response (1m measurement).jpg

That large amount of phase growth (i.e., anything over 360 degrees across the audible band) is audible as added harshness, fuzzy or woolly bass and a very flat and uninteresting/disengaging overall presentation.

Group delay:
Similar to the phase plot growth, group delay itself is audible, and is a function of instantaneous rate of change in phase response plot (the first derivative of the phase curve). Below you will see your loudspeaker measurement group delay plot. Basically, anything above 1 ms of group delay (vertical axis) in the 500-6000 Hz range is audible:

Hutzpahs Group Delay and Excess Group Delay Plot.jpg

Excess group delay above the above-mentioned threshold audibility values affects the reproduction of impulsive sounds like castanets and high hats. As a comparison to the above, here is a plot of group delay/excess group delay of a loudspeaker in my listening room:

K-402-MEH Group Delay  Excess Group Delay (1m measurement).jpg

There are more areas that can be discussed and shown (step response, reverberation times, harmonic distortion) but in general, I've found that those loudspeaker/room capabilities pale by comparison to the above characteristics.

JMTC. Note that the above is only offered as an example of the type of performance that I'm accustomed to when helping to dial-in loudspeakers (DSP crossover, multiamping) of other users on other forums and in my listening room--not examples of impossible or unattainable performance levels. I've found that all the characteristics that I've highlighted are quite audible in high quality hi-fi systems--and something that I would hope that anyone doing mixing or mastering would also attain in their setups such that their music track output quality is in the ballpark of what I can hear. Otherwise, we have the situation that exists for lower quality studio monitors like the (in)famous Yamaha NS-10M Studio and the Auratone 5c mixed/mastered tracks--which have noted systemic issues.

Chris
 
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