Movie/TV sound versus music sound from same AVR.

[robbnj]

MODS: I'm sure this has been covered, but my searches do not bring me to a thread that I can refer to.
If there is a definitive one that covers this question, please close this post and I'll head there!

My system consists of a Denon AVR-X4000 feeding a MINIDSP into a 2-channel amp. The amp powers my main speakers (not that it should be relevant, but they are pretty flat down to 20Hz). The internal AVR amps are used for the center and surrounds.
I have two powered subs, one flanking each main speaker (my only option at the moment). MINIDSP between AVR and subs.

I've tinkered with the system plenty, and dialed in the Audyssey plus both MINIDSPS to get a pretty nice sounding response. When I measure with REW, it also doesn't look bad at all.

The speedbump I'm hitting is that it sounds really good when I watch TV or movies, but really "thin" when listening to music. When I adjust the subs for decent impact during music (not basshead-style, just a realistic presentation), it becomes overbearing with movies and TV. When I adjust for movies/TV, it becomes anemic for music.
For example, last night I was watching Better Call Saul. When the volume is set to sound like reality (voices, etc) and car doors get closed, there is a realistic "thud". As if a car is in my room and the door gets slammed.+

But then I switched over to my music source (CD player, DVD player, music server computer) and listened to My head's In Mississippi by ZZ Top, which has a great bass line. And it almost sounded like I had no woofers at all.
I had to crank the subs to the max in the AVR to get a reasonable presentation, and it was still a bit weak.
I checked to make sure my sources did not have any type of EQ enabled that could cause the issue. None.

I've tried with my speakers set to Small and my bass mgmt as LFE, and also as LFE+Main. I've tried with speaker set to Large, and bass mgmt set to LFE, and LFE+Main.
I've tried it with Dynamic EQ on and Dynamic EQ off. I don't use compression or other auto-volume control, as it makes some of my TV/movies sound like garbage.

As far as I can tell after going back and forth a bunch times, when I set my signal levels per channel, it affects settings globally.
Turn the subs up in TV Audio mode, and the levels go up in Media Player mode. And vice versa.

Is this just the way it is, and I'll have to adjust my settings each time I switch between moves/TV and listening to music?

 

[ddude003]

Hi @robbnj , You could be dealing with one of several issues... Gain staging, LFE vs stereo only to the subs, a preamp or integrated amp without HT bypass and I am sure there are more permutations and combinations...

Can you run pre-amped stereo L & R to your subs as well as have an LFE connection? So your subs just get either LFE or Stereo depending on HT or music...

I run my kit in a similar fashion as stereo uses Streamer and DAC to a preamp, amp for L & R + sub... HT uses AVR to preamp with some physical attenuation (read gain stage), amp for L & R + sub and AVR feeds center and surrounds... And yes I still have to adjust gain/vol between stereo only and HT... Two remotes, AVR and Stereo not difficult to level match for HT from the couch as it seems like each HT source (Amazon, Netflix or BlueRay as well as each video/movie) uses a different sound mix anyways...

 

[robbnj]

Hi @robbnj , You could be dealing with one of several issues... Gain staging, LFE vs stereo only to the subs, a preamp or integrated amp without HT bypass and I am sure there are more permutations and combinations...

Can you run pre-amped stereo L & R to your subs as well as have an LFE connection? So your subs just get either LFE or Stereo depending on HT or music...

I might be able to do that with some Y-splitters, but I thought that was supposed to happen when setting the speakers to LFE+MAIN mode. If it matters, I run the crossover a little high to get some more signal to the subs via the LFE out. (?)

I run my kit in a similar fashion as stereo uses Streamer and DAC to a preamp, amp for L & R + sub... HT uses AVR to preamp with some physical attenuation (read gain stage), amp for L & R + sub and AVR feeds center and surrounds... And yes I still have to adjust gain/vol between stereo only and HT... Two remotes, AVR and Stereo not difficult to level match for HT from the couch as it seems like each HT source (Amazon, Netflix or BlueRay as well as each video/movie) uses a different sound mix anyways...

I have definitely noticed the variation of mixes between streaming sources (some shows are downright abysmal, with insane surround levels, horrible center channel levels, you name it) but they are all pretty consistently more impactful than the music I play in stereo ("Music") mode through the AVR.

Would be really nice if my AVR had completely independent setting capability for each input choice, instead of some settings (like channel levels) being global.
Might be time to search for a new AVR...

 

[JStewart]

Would be really nice if my AVR had completely independent setting capability for each input choice

Not sure of the extent of what you’re looking for, but there does seem to be the ability to independently adjust the analog and digital input volumes (gain).
See page 170 of the manual

https://assets.denon.com/documentmaster/us/owners%20manual%20-%20english_avr-x4000.pdf#page170

 

[ddude003]

I think the difference lies between a sub being fed a stereo L&R (pre out?) signal and feeding a sub with LFE which is +10dB hotter as well as some additional hocus pocus ...
See the attached response from my favorite AI Perplexity...

 

[robbnj]

Not sure of the extent of what you’re looking for, but there does seem to be the ability to independently adjust the analog and digital input volumes (gain).
See page 170 of the manual

https://assets.denon.com/documentmaster/us/owners%20manual%20-%20english_avr-x4000.pdf#page170

Thank you for doing such a deep dive on this!

As I read it, that adjustment allows me to match my input gains per source so that the volume remains somewhat constant when switching between sources. ie.e so I don;t get blown out of the room if I switch from a "cold" (low-voltage line-level) source to a "hot" (higher voltage) source.

I'm struggling more with the dynamics of the music being weak relative to the movie/TV stuff, when played at a similar level.

 

[robbnj]

I think the difference lies between a sub being fed a stereo L&R (pre out?) signal and feeding a sub with LFE which is +10dB hotter as well as some additional hocus pocus ...
See the attached response from my favorite AI Perplexity...

Are you saying the sub may run 10dB hotter in movie/TV mode, even though when I run the level test, I set all channels to the same level (75dB)?

I remember that being a thing with the way REW measures (still not exaclty sure what it meant), but I thought using the internal AVR test tones balanced that all out?

 

[Jimp540]

MODS: I'm sure this has been covered, but my searches do not bring me to a thread that I can refer to.
If there is a definitive one that covers this question, please close this post and I'll head there!

My system consists of a Denon AVR-X4000 feeding a MINIDSP into a 2-channel amp. The amp powers my main speakers (not that it should be relevant, but they are pretty flat down to 20Hz). The internal AVR amps are used for the center and surrounds.
I have two powered subs, one flanking each main speaker (my only option at the moment). MINIDSP between AVR and subs.

I've tinkered with the system plenty, and dialed in the Audyssey plus both MINIDSPS to get a pretty nice sounding response. When I measure with REW, it also doesn't look bad at all.

The speedbump I'm hitting is that it sounds really good when I watch TV or movies, but really "thin" when listening to music. When I adjust the subs for decent impact during music (not basshead-style, just a realistic presentation), it becomes overbearing with movies and TV. When I adjust for movies/TV, it becomes anemic for music.
For example, last night I was watching Better Call Saul. When the volume is set to sound like reality (voices, etc) and car doors get closed, there is a realistic "thud". As if a car is in my room and the door gets slammed.+

But then I switched over to my music source (CD player, DVD player, music server computer) and listened to My head's In Mississippi by ZZ Top, which has a great bass line. And it almost sounded like I had no woofers at all.
I had to crank the subs to the max in the AVR to get a reasonable presentation, and it was still a bit weak.
I checked to make sure my sources did not have any type of EQ enabled that could cause the issue. None.

I've tried with my speakers set to Small and my bass mgmt as LFE, and also as LFE+Main. I've tried with speaker set to Large, and bass mgmt set to LFE, and LFE+Main.
I've tried it with Dynamic EQ on and Dynamic EQ off. I don't use compression or other auto-volume control, as it makes some of my TV/movies sound like garbage.

As far as I can tell after going back and forth a bunch times, when I set my signal levels per channel, it affects settings globally.
Turn the subs up in TV Audio mode, and the levels go up in Media Player mode. And vice versa.

Is this just the way it is, and I'll have to adjust my settings each time I switch between moves/TV and listening to music?

Could it be the LFE level in the surround settings for the receiver need to be brought down, the actual subwoofer volume brought back up to account for the decrease in LFE signal thereby also raising the sub level for stereo music listening? Just my thoughts!

 

[ddude003]

Are you saying the sub may run 10dB hotter in movie/TV mode, even though when I run the level test, I set all channels to the same level (75dB)?

I remember that being a thing with the way REW measures (still not exaclty sure what it meant), but I thought using the internal AVR test tones balanced that all out?

Yes... I am saying that the LFE channel does run +10dB hotter level then the plain Jane Stereo channels... How you compensate a level match for your sub, in your kit, is unknown to me... At least the two ideas above by @Jimp540 and @JStewart are worth a try...

BTY page 3-7 has a description of the LFE channel +10dB boost... http://www.associationdesmixeurs.fr...0/Dolby-5.1-Channel-Production-Guidelines.pdf It is baked into the content...

 

[JStewart]

Yes... I am saying that the LFE channel does run +10dB hotter level then the plain Jane Stereo channels... How you compensate a level match for your sub, in your kit, is unknown to me...

@robbnj , to expand on this in case it helps…

The LFE track on a movie mix is recorded 10dB lower and therefore when this LFE track is played back, the AVR boosts it by 10dB such that it’s in proper relation to the other channels.

The LFE recorded track and bass redirected to the subwoofer by a crossover are handled differently. There is no boost applied to redirected bass, because it was not attenuated in the first place, as LFE recorded tracks are.

What this means in REW is if a signal is sent directly to the subwoofer channel, typically channel #4 with hdmi, the AVR will boost it by 10dB. If on the other hand a signal is sent to the Center, for example, and there is a crossover in place, the redirected bass will be 10dB lower in comparison.

If unaware of this it is an easy mistake to lower the sub channel output or raise other channel outputs to match levels with a subwoofer.

So, when using REW to generate a signal for level matching the signal sent to the subwoofer channel directly, CH 4, needs to be attenuated 10dB beforehand or adjusted for by lowering the SPL of the resultant measurement afterward in REW. There’s a checkbox for this I think you mentioned.

Typically, when using signals generated by the AVR itself for level matching, the AVR will account for this, so nothing to adjust for in this case.

 

[robbnj]

Yes... I am saying that the LFE channel does run +10dB hotter level then the plain Jane Stereo channels... How you compensate a level match for your sub, in your kit, is unknown to me... At least the two ideas above by @Jimp540 and @JStewart are worth a try...

BTY page 3-7 has a description of the LFE channel +10dB boost... http://www.associationdesmixeurs.fr...0/Dolby-5.1-Channel-Production-Guidelines.pdf It is baked into the content...

I think that's the hurdle I have to overcome.
My AVR seems to do global channel levels. So if I crank the subs for music, I have to reduce then back for movies.
Unfortunately, Denon took a step backwards and made it so you have to go 3-5 layers deep in menus to do so.

 

[ddude003]

I am a stereo music first kind of guy and not a big bass head... I love me some tight and incisive bass in the music I listen to... So I mostly look beyond the junk that is usually pushed as effects in movie content as I focus on what is important to me, Stereo Music...

It seems like you have already jumped out of your AVR and have an external amp to drive your main L&R speakers and subs... Have you thought about fronting that external amp with a preamp? Where and how do you control volume/gain of your amp? With the AVR or something like a preamp? A little food for thought...

 

[Jimp540]

I think that's the hurdle I have to oversome.
My AVR seems to do global channel levels. So if I crank the subs for music, I have to reduce then back for movies.
Unfortunately, Denon took a step backwards and made it so you have to go 3-5 layers deep in menus to do so.

I believe your manual mentions the LFE settings on page 151 in the Denon book. It does have recommended levels for movies and music. From the symptoms described, you may want to try taking the LFE channel down by 10. This setting will only affect sound delivered in a multi-channel output such as 5.1 or 7.1… as it is a setting for the .1 (subwoofer) output. Normal stereo music output does use subwoofers to cover the low end that main speakers don’t (ie. 80Hz crossover) but are not driven by the LFE (low frequency effects) channel that multichannel movies and recordings do.

 

[MusicManLen]

You didn't say what brand of subs you have but if you are using SVS Subs their app lets you set separate settings for movies and music and then its a simple button push to go back and forth between your music and movie settings. Perhaps you can check your subs and see if they offer something similar to SVS.