Mismatched SUB help needed

[ciotime]

Hi...a noob here needing some help. I currently have 2 subs ( Paradigm PDR10 and PDR12 ) in a dedicated HT room ( 13x19x8 ) that is functional but quite old. I'm planning on getting the SVS PB-1000 since my old subs can't really go down to the lower frequencies.
1) Will I be better off using 2 SVS PB-1000 rather than integrating the SVS to the existing 2 Paradigm subs? I would rather integrate them than having to spend for another sub.
2) Should I just use the PDR12 and SVS PB-1000 for a dual setup or is a 3 sub setup doable?
3) I understand that Audyssey will only EQ to the capability of the less capable Paradigm Subwoofers but can I use the miniDSP to get around this problem and be able to maximize the SVS's potential? If so how do I go about doing this? A step by step guide would be truly helpful...thanks.

*PDR-10

Amplifier: 120 watts RMS / 360 watts Peak
Subwoofer Cutoff Frequency: Variable 50 Hz – 150 Hz
Bass Driver: 254-mm (10 in) carbon-fiber-reinforced composite cone, 38-mm (1-1/2 in) voice coil
Low Frequency Extension: 27 Hz (DIN)


*PDR-12

Amplifier: 150 watts RMS / 450 watts Peak
Low Pass Filter Frequency: Variable 50Hz-150Hz
Low Frequency Driver: 305-mm ( 12" ) carbon-fiber-reinforced composite cone, 51-mm (2 in) voice coil
Low Frequency Extension: 24 Hz (DIN)



*SVS PB-1000 Specs

Amplifier Power Rating	300 W RMS 720 W Peak
Drivers	10" / 25.4 cm
Frequency Response	19 to 270 Hz
Amplifier Class	Class-D

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Mixing subs of different capabilities can be problematic, as you can see in this old post with graphs.

EQ for the Paradigms can help, but that means they will run out of headroom in a hurry trying to get down as low as the SVS. Plus in my experience trying to EQ a sub to enhance its extension, it never sounds as good as a sub that just “gets it” naturally.

Largely, your success at integrating the three will depend on your headroom. If you are “over-sub’d”, meaning you have more subs than the room needs and they are basically “loafing,” they it can work. But if your situation has the Paradigms working hard, then I doubt this will turn out well.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[Todd Anderson]

Agree with Wayne. Your PDR10 is likely going to weigh down your experience, especially as you reach reference levels. If it's in the budget, I'd sell the Paradigms and go dual SVS.

 

[ciotime]

So even using the miniDSP won't help?

 

[Sonnie Parker]

About the only thing the miniDSP will do is help you get the subs time aligned... and you could go ahead and use PEQ filters to tame the high peaks before running Audyssey. This would help in the level settings between the subs and mains.

You won't have any issues until one sub starts to outrun the other. You can level match your subs to 70dB and then measure each sub and gradually increase the volume and repeat measurements. Eventually you will see one sub start to lower in measurement response than the other, and that would be the level at which the subs are no longer on the same page.

You can also let Audyssey do it's thing, then measure only the subs combined. At lower levels the response will look good, as you increase the volume and continue to measure, if one sub is outrunning the other, the response will start to reshape. If you can get the volume as loud as you will ever use it and the response continues to be smooth or not reshape too much, you may be fine.

Measurements are key to know what you are dealing with.

 

[Todd Anderson]

If you do integrate, I would lose the 10" paradigm and only run with the 12... try duals with that.

 

[ciotime]

About the only thing the miniDSP will do is help you get the subs time aligned... and you could go ahead and use PEQ filters to tame the high peaks before running Audyssey. This would help in the level settings between the subs and mains.

You won't have any issues until one sub starts to outrun the other. You can level match your subs to 70dB and then measure each sub and gradually increase the volume and repeat measurements. Eventually you will see one sub start to lower in measurement response than the other, and that would be the level at which the subs are no longer on the same page.

You can also let Audyssey do it's thing, then measure only the subs combined. At lower levels the response will look good, as you increase the volume and continue to measure, if one sub is outrunning the other, the response will start to reshape. If you can get the volume as loud as you will ever use it and the response continues to be smooth or not reshape too much, you may be fine.

Measurements are key to know what you are dealing with.

Thank you so much for the help. Being a newbie lot's of word's you mentioned are very foreign to me but I'll try to make sense as much as I can. I do need some clarification is you don't mind.

1) You can level match your subs to 70dB-is this the same as gain match? So use an SPL meter and adjust the volume at the back of each sub until they're all at 70dB on the SPL meter?

2) You can also let Audyssey do it's thing, then measure only the subs combined-Measure using the REW software right?

 

[ciotime]

If you do integrate, I would lose the 10" paradigm and only run with the 12... try duals with that.

Thanks...most likely this is what will happen but I'll try to intergrade the 10" and just see what happens.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Thank you so much for the help. Being a newbie lot's of word's you mentioned are very foreign to me but I'll try to make sense as much as I can. I do need some clarification is you don't mind.

1) You can level match your subs to 70dB-is this the same as gain match? So use an SPL meter and adjust the volume at the back of each sub until they're all at 70dB on the SPL meter?

2) You can also let Audyssey do it's thing, then measure only the subs combined-Measure using the REW software right?

1) You can level match this way yes... or use REW's built-in SPL meter... or measure each sub and adjust the volume until the response measurements line up fairly well. I like measuring each sub better because you are seeing the entire frequency response, while an SPL meter only measures the highest frequency peak and may not really be representative of the subs being truly level matched... at least not until their respective frequency response is smoothed out.
2) Yes... using REW.

 

[ciotime]

1) You can level match this way yes... or use REW's built-in SPL meter... or measure each sub and adjust the volume until the response measurements line up fairly well. I like measuring each sub better because you are seeing the entire frequency response, while an SPL meter only measures the highest frequency peak and may not really be representative of the subs being truly level matched... at least not until their respective frequency response is smoothed out.
2) Yes... using REW.

Thanks....so do you think using the miniDSP 2X4HD will help? If so at which step of the process do I use it? Before or after measuring? Do I do the tweaking like set delays cutoff etc at the miniDSP or at the AVR?

 

[Sonnie Parker]

If you've already purchased it, you can use it to time align the speakers, but that might be quite the chore if you're not familiar with the process. Otherwise, I would start with the two larger subs assuming your Denon has the Sub EQ HT and can time align two of your subs. Run Audyssey with those two subs, then do some measurements as previously outlined.

 

[ciotime]

I've posted here the REW results of the 3 subs routed to the miniDSP.

2 subs on the front and 1 sub at the rear center. No EQ etc yet. Just the summation of the 3 subs turned on. Measurement was made from 10HZ to 120HZ. I don't really know what the graph says. I just know there's a dip at about the 38HZ and 75HZ region. Can anyone please check the results if it's not bad/average/bad? Thanks.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Looks pretty good if you bring that area from 20-30Hz down about 8-10dB. The miniDSP can help with this with use of PEQ filters. Then you can run Audyssey and it won't bring your sub levels down so much.

 

[ciotime]

Looks pretty good if you bring that area from 20-30Hz down about 8-10dB. The miniDSP can help with this with use of PEQ filters. Then you can run Audyssey and it won't bring your sub levels down so much.

Thanks again Sonnie for the help...will try tinkering with the PEQ as per advised. FYI the SVS PB-1000 is at the front left and the PDR12 is at the front right. Rear center about 1 foot from the wall ( with 2" absorption panels ) is the PDR10.

Also should I also apply a HPF? Saw someone suggest it to protect the subs. Supposed to set it just below the tuning freq of the subs. Problem is I don't know the tuning freq of my subs. Is it the same as the Low Frequency Extension?
Should I set it at around 20HZ?

 

[ciotime]

I did some tinkering on REW. After EQ this is what I got. Saw a video that instead of using a house curve in REW EQ to just instead flatten the response and to try to get it to hug the line as much as possible. I'm still a noob so I can't really say if this result is considered really good.

 

[Travis Ballstadt]

Another idea to toss around, what are your LCR speakers? You could always try tying the subs into your LR channels, and instead of trying to use them to maximize LFE, you could try using them to extend the low end of your LR channels. Just a thought to play with. I’m using an old sub to extend my center right now, and it’s working well enough that I may try to locate two more identical subs to extend my entries front soundstage.

 

[ciotime]

Fronts are B&W DM 602 S3 and LCR 60 S3.