MiniDSP Sub Setup

JStewart

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I am unable to export frd files from REW. I was able to import the text files into MSO. Is this ok? The directions so far say to use the frd files.
Yes.
 

Epoxy1

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Is there a tutorial on the alignment tool?
 

BigDan79

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Sony 4K Player, Apple 4k
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Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
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SVS Prime Elevation
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2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
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LG 65" OLED
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MiniDSP
Do you have to have main channel measurements to run the the MSO optimization on subs?
 

JStewart

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Do you have to have main channel measurements to run the the MSO optimization on subs?
No. We've set this up for a MSO "Sub Only" configuration. After the subs are aligned with each follow whichever method has been previously used to set the sub and main delays(distances) and gains. Usually room correction software with the processor.
Right click on Configurations and choose add a new Sub-Only configuration

2020-01-04 (7).png

Set up the new Sub-Only configuration to do the optimization.
 

JStewart

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Is there a tutorial on the alignment tool?
Not sure. I couldn't easily find anything within REW help either.

Here's some pics that may help.

2020-01-04 (1).png


2020-01-04 (2).png
2020-01-04 (3).png
2020-01-04 (4).png



Moving the delay slider is equivalent to where in the video delay values where set in the MiniDSP and re-measured until the best response was arrived at.
Should be able to use this tool to phase align fronts/mains at the XO as well. Perhaps @jtalden can confirm or set me straight as needed. :)
 

BigDan79

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Sony 4K Player, Apple 4k
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Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
Center Channel Speaker
Paradigm Studio CC-570 v.3
Surround Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Surround Back Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Subwoofers
2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED
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MiniDSP
Shoot! I didn't know you could choose sub only. I will have to setup the config file again.
 

Epoxy1

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Anthem AVM60
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ATI NCore AT527NC
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ATI NCore AT624NC
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Panasonic DP-UB420
Front Speakers
M&K S150
Center Channel Speaker
M&K S150
Surround Speakers
M&K SS150
Surround Back Speakers
M&K SS150
Front Height Speakers
Atlantic Technology OBA-6
Rear Height Speakers
Atlantic Technology OBA-6
Subwoofers
SVS PC-Ultra, SVS SB3000, JBL d110 x2, HSU 15H-MK2
Other Speakers or Equipment
MiniDSP controlling all of the subwoofers
Video Display Device
JVC RS2000
Screen
110" Stewart Firehawk G5 2.35:1
Remote Control
URC MX-980
Other Equipment
Roku Ultra, TiVo Edge
I guess I'll be breaking out my gear again tomorrow and having some REW fun. Thankfully, my wife will be gone most of the day. She doesn't like the sound of the sub sweeps :)
 

JStewart

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Shoot! I didn't know you could choose sub only. I will have to setup the config file again.
You should be able to right click on the config you set up and choose "Clone". Pretty sure it will then give you the option to clone it as a sub only config but otherwise keep all that you've set up. (or better stated, duplicate it to the new sub-only config.)
 

JStewart

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I guess I'll be breaking out my gear again tomorrow and having some REW fun. Thankfully, my wife will be gone most of the day. She doesn't like the sound of the sub sweeps :)
I'll be driving 4 to 4 1/2 hours tomorrow. Wish I could trade.
 

JStewart

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@BigDan79 here's a house/room target curve you can use in MSO if you'd like. This is NAD's & PSBs room feel curve. Its very close to Harman's curve. Keep in mind it will be of limited or no value if you're using room correction that corrects for subs, such as Audyssey, after you've got the subs lined out.
So I guess just in case.
I suppose it could be imported to REW in the EQ section also but never tried it.
 

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BigDan79

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Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
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Paradigm Prestige 25s
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SVS Prime Elevation
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SVS Prime Elevation
Subwoofers
2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED
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MiniDSP
I just saw your recent post. Let me check it. Please see the attached screen shot. Am I on the right track?
 

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jtalden

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The REW alignment tool makes it easier to determine delay timing. It can be used to time multiple subs together as well as determine the sub group delay needed to match well to the main speakers. There are other ways to do both. MSO can find a very favorable timing for the individual subs, but I have no experience with it. Some of the automated methods work very well for sub group delay timing and there are many manual methods.

No matter the tool, first determine delay settings for the individual subs. The sub group delay to the mains can then be determined.

If the REW alignment tool is going to be used for either of these. I can probably help if needed. It's important to have the correct measurements however. Here is link to the Needed measurements for determining the delay of the subgroup to the mains.
 

JStewart

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The REW alignment tool makes it easier to determine delay timing. It can be used to time multiple subs together as well as determine the sub group delay needed to match well to the main speakers. There are other ways to do both. MSO can find a very favorable timing for the individual subs, but I have no experience with it. Some of the automated methods work very well for sub group delay timing and there are many manual methods.

No matter the tool, first determine delay settings for the individual subs. The sub group delay to the mains can then be determined.

If the REW alignment tool is going to be used for either of these. I can probably help if needed. It's important to have the correct measurements however. Here is link to the Needed measurements for determining the delay of the subgroup to the mains.
Thank you!
 

JStewart

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I just saw your recent post. Let me check it. Please see the attached screen shot. Am I on the right track?
Yes of course!!
if you want post the REW .mdat and MSOs .msop I'd be able to have a closer look in the morning if you wish.
 

BigDan79

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Sony 4K Player, Apple 4k
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Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
Center Channel Speaker
Paradigm Studio CC-570 v.3
Surround Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Surround Back Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Subwoofers
2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED
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MiniDSP
Heck yeah!
 

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BigDan79

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Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
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Paradigm Prestige 25s
Surround Back Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
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SVS Prime Elevation
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2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
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LG 65" OLED
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It won't allow me to post the MSO file.
 

BigDan79

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Sony 4K Player, Apple 4k
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Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
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Paradigm Studio CC-570 v.3
Surround Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
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Paradigm Prestige 25s
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SVS Prime Elevation
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2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED
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MiniDSP
My apologies. I should have taken a thorough look at this yesterday.

View attachment 27933
Please don't apologize. You have been extremely helpful while I fumble around with these programs.

Please let me know if this link works for the MSO file.

 

JStewart

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Please don't apologize. You have been extremely helpful while I fumble around with these programs.
Let’s see... you have a new minidsp with software, you’re having to learn and use REW for the first time which is no easy task, learning the use of the MSO software which is also not the easiest, and you’re also learning more about the concepts of subwoofer alignment and integration. Not fumbling.
Really I’m sometimes surprised that any of us have puzzled our way through it!
 

BigDan79

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Sony 4K Player, Apple 4k
Front Speakers
Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
Center Channel Speaker
Paradigm Studio CC-570 v.3
Surround Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Surround Back Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Subwoofers
2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED
Other Equipment
MiniDSP
With a very big thanks to JStewart I was able to finally run MSO correctly and input the settings into my MiniDSP.

Here are some of the comparison before and after MSO graphs from my first attempt. I also included the after REW measurements if anyone is interested.

I want to listen to these changes for a few days before trying anything else. The first thing I have already noticed is that the room seems less boomy if that's even a word.
 

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JStewart

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Way to go! It was a quite a bit of work for you and hopefully satisfying. Definitely listening to and liking what you hear is most important.

How do you integrate the subs with the mains?
If room correction then can the distances be changed after its run? If yes or you don’t use it, then something to consider is to phase align the subs to the mains if they are not already in order to get the best hand off at the xo. JTAlden provided a link for the measurements needed above in this thread and he is quite excellent at helping folks get it done if the requested measurements are provided.

Lastly, may I ask a favor? When you have time would you re-post the graphs in the previous post with the Y axis changed to show 5dB increments? A Y axis from 45dB to 95dB should do it. It’s a standard of sorts for posting SPL graphs that makes it easier to see the severity of peaks/dips and to compare one person’s measurements with another’s. My bad for not mentioning it before and thank you!
 

BigDan79

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My AV System  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo RZ3100
Main Amp
Emotiva XPA-9 Gen3
Additional Amp
Emotiva A-5175
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony 4K Player, Apple 4k
Front Speakers
Paradigm Studio 60 v.3
Center Channel Speaker
Paradigm Studio CC-570 v.3
Surround Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Surround Back Speakers
Paradigm Prestige 25s
Front Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Rear Height Speakers
SVS Prime Elevation
Subwoofers
2 Paradigm PW-2200 v.2, 1 Rythmik FV18
Video Display Device
LG 65" OLED
Other Equipment
MiniDSP
How do you integrate the subs with the mains?
If room correction then can the distances be changed after its run? If yes or you don’t use it, then something to consider is to phase align the subs to the mains if they are not already in order to get the best hand off at the xo. JTAlden provided a link for the measurements needed above in this thread and he is quite excellent at helping folks get it done if the requested measurements are provided.
Sorry for the slow response. Christmas break is over, back to work. Let me try to answer your question. I initially ran Audyssey on the receiver to set it up. Currently have have Audyssey turned off and have changed the distance measurements (laser measure), speaker levels (SPL meter) and crossover frequencies. I set all of the speakers to 80Hz for the crossover.

Lastly, may I ask a favor? When you have time would you re-post the graphs in the previous post with the Y axis changed to show 5dB increments? A Y axis from 45dB to 95dB should do it. It’s a standard of sorts for posting SPL graphs that makes it easier to see the severity of peaks/dips and to compare one person’s measurements with another’s. My bad for not mentioning it before and thank you!
Yes, I can re-post with new graphs. Might take me a few days to get to it.

I did want to mention after watching few movies I have really started to notice how big of a difference the Rythmik sub makes. My windows didn't rattle until I purchased the Rythmik. This thing shakes the whole house. After the adjustments it seems more powerful if that makes sense. Maybe its finally breaking in or the adjustments made a difference. Either way, the addition of this sub made a big difference. Are there any tips for stopping windows from rattling?:)
 

JStewart

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Are there any tips for stopping windows from rattling?
Duct tape? Just kidding!

That Rythmik is an awesome sub. It has output much lower than the approx 23Hz the Paradigms roll off sharply at in your measurements.

One of the 2 Paradigms actually had a really good response over its output range for each of the seats without any eq:

P-Sub2 Middle-Right-Left.png


That rise in the response from 100Hz to 25Hz is also good. A built in house curve if you will.

Further, the similarity between the 3 seats suggests that PEQ alone would work in this case to adjust the response of the sub without making the response worse for any of the seats as can happen.

Digging in further, here's what REW calculates when you put the 2 Paradigms together at the middle seat without any delay/phase adjustment between the 2 subs.

Both Paradigms Midde..png



The combined output is actually lower for the two together over a good portion of the range. Where the combined output is higher (25Hz) it's undesirable. This would be a case where the one sub would have performed (more output) and sounded (smoother response) better than the 2 together. (When you mentioned that it sounded boomy it made me think of that 15dB peak at 25Hz)

Anyway, my actual thought is that since the Paradigms might also be degrading the performance of the Rythmik below 25Hz and because the output of the 1 Paradigm in its present location was good, I'd try putting the Rythmik in it's place and measure it. If the response is still good then maybe a couple of PEQ filters and/or run Audyssey and watch a movie with some deep output and see how it sounds. If it measures and sounds good and your windows still rattle then you might have some gear you can sell. Just a thought.

If you try this I'd recommend some painters tape placed so the Rythmik and Paradigm can be put back EXACTLY where they were. Also take note of the EXACT position of the volume control on the Rythmik before its changed. This way the subs can be put back without having to re-do EVERYTHING.
 
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