MartinLogan Renaissance 15A vs. Revel PerformaBe F328Be

AJ Soundfield

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Horses for courses
 

pratul

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So... the original thread title is...

MartinLogan Renaissance 15A vs. Revel PerformaBe F328Be

...and thus I can legitimately compare the two now that we have officially finished our evaluations. I'll repeat some of this in the evaluation thread, but this is more of a direct comparison here. I did not want to comment until Wayne and Dennis had time to listen and make their notes on the speakers we evaluated, of which I have NOT read their notes. Obviously I know a little bit about what they think of the speakers because of what we have to go thru to setup each speaker for evaluation. In the evaluation reports each speaker will have it's own thread and they will not be compared directly, although there could easily be mention of one of the other speakers in any of the speaker threads. I also wanted to wait until they got here so that we could all work together for the best placement of the speakers. It's been done and we have finished the official evals... just having more fun listening now.

As stated in my original first post, I wanted to give the Revels serious consideration for my room due to all the positive out there about them, and due to their wide dispersion characteristics and excellent off-axis response. Let me get it out of the way... I don't think they could ever come even remotely close to replacing any of the MartinLogan speakers I've had in my system. I'm probably going to get bashed, and I'll hear all kinds of excuses of what I didn't do right in evaluating these speakers, but frankly I don't care... it is what it is, and the Revels have not been able to compete with my 15A's from my perspective.

For those that don't have subs and might be considering the F328Be... they had no bass in my room when placed for the best imaging and soundstage, unless we placed them very close to the wall, and then the bass was just okay. If you have subs... probably not an issue. Otherwise the F328Be are very good speakers with subs. I personally thought they had very good imaging and a respectable soundstage, although not quite as pinpoint imaging and not as big of a soundstage as the 15A's.

The biggest issue we had with the F328 was placement. I've never known but just a few speakers that have been in my room that we've had placement issues with, and the F328's are by far the worst we've ever dealt with. I hate trying to find a happy medium between imaging and soundstage vs bass. Why can't we have both... or why can't speakers be easier to place... some are and some are not. The F328 is one of those difficult speakers in my room. I'm sure there are those that believe they have great imaging and soundstage and they had no issues placing them in their room - - good for them - - glad you did not have struggles, and I would love to hear your system to see if it sounds anything akin to my listening preferences. We did eventually find what I thought was a pretty good location for the imaging... although the center image was slightly fat (not offensive to me, but Wayne and Dennis were not happy with it), the off-center imaging was spot on for me. When we toed in the speakers to tighten up the center image to appease Wayne and Dennis, it started to smear the imaging on each side of center. A good example is the horn player in Cassandra Wilson's Strange Fruit. In one position her voice was a bit thick, but the horn player was dead on. When we tightened up her voice, the horn player would shift from just left of center and move farther left (where it is when I consider it spot on) as the horn got louder. Only a few other speakers have ever done this in my room, and it is truly aggravating and irritating to say the least. Ultimately we tried fifty-eleven different locations and toe-in angles (exhausting)... we worked harder on these speakers than any other speaker that's been in my room trying to get them dialed in, but we kept coming up just a bit shy. Keep in mind... we are extremely picky... much more so than what the average listener will likely be... we are looking for absolute perfection in placement. While in the one spot where I thought the imaging was satisfactory, despite the center image being just a little fat (again I was not offended by it), I enjoyed listening to the speakers, and could listen for hours on end very easily, so it wasn't all bad, just a lot of work to get there... and just a little short of perfection. I'm sure most listeners would be laughing at us about now if they heard these speakers in my room, and would claim they sound marvelous. Mind you... a "good" speaker is not "bad", it just may not be as good as others... and our definition of marvelous is very strict because we have compared so many different speakers in my room over the last 10-12 years.

In a nutshell... the biggest differences between the two are that the 15A's have been easier to setup in my room and can be dialed in from several locations and angles with less of a difference in sound. The 15A's have a wider and taller soundstage, contributed to their huge panel size and design, and they have better pinpoint imaging across the soundstage, with better depth acuity. I feel much more immersed in the music with the 15A's than with the F328's. They also absolutely spank the F328's in bass response if you don't have room for subs.

I'll be keeping the 15A's... next?
Now I really want to hear your 15A's. I will send you a DM. :)
 

RichB

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@Sonnie, I don't think that there is anything wrong with your listening session or conclusions.

The 328Bes are rear ported and passive and do not go particularly deep, presumably designed for efficiency and to paired with a subwoofer. A rear port can benefit by placement near walls, again not surprising.
The 328Bes start rolling off bass at 40Hz (spec'ed at -3dB at 35Hz) so there was never going to a contest with an adjustable powered woofer.

The Stereophile measurements show very good in-room response, perhaps brighter in the mid-range and high frequencies than conventional speakers: MartinLogan Masterpiece Renaissance ESL 15A loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

@Sonnie, do you consider the ML15As dispersion wider or less wide than the 328Bes?
The argument could be made the wider dispersion speakers are not as good at imaging.

Also, what are you impression of the dynamics of each?

- Rich
 
Last edited:

Sonnie

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@Sonnie, do you consider the ML15As dispersion wider or less wide than the 328Bes?
The argument could be made the wider dispersion speakers are not as good at imaging.

Also, what are you impression of the dynamics of each?

- Rich
From what I understand the F328's have very wide dispersion characteristics and the 15A's have narrower dispersion. It's difficult for me to actually "hear" this when listening in stereo, unless it was affecting imaging as you suggest. The 15A's imaged well all across the soundstage, while the F328's had issues with either center or off-center imaging depending on the location and toe-in. This could have very well been due to dispersion characteristics.

I might give the edge to the 15A's being more dynamic simply because the bass is more prevalent.
 

RichB

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From what I understand the F328's have very wide dispersion characteristics and the 15A's have narrower dispersion. It's difficult for me to actually "hear" this when listening in stereo, unless it was affecting imaging as you suggest. The 15A's imaged well all across the soundstage, while the F328's had issues with either center or off-center imaging depending on the location and toe-in. This could have very well been due to dispersion characteristics.

I might give the edge to the 15A's being more dynamic simply because the bass is more prevalent.

My first foray into the wide dispersion speakers was the JBL XPL 140 that had a titanium dome midrange. This was in the early 90s. A local dealer had these hooked to CD player directly driven by an amplifier in a large space. I really liked the way the speaker integrated the drivers and the consistency of the soundstage as I moved around the room. Since then, I moved to Salon1 and now Salon2s. I have also heard the F208s, M20s, and 126Bes.

IME Revels do a good job of integrating the drivers so they the are perceived as a single sound source. The Salon2s do this best and while there is a direction of the sound, attention is not overly drawn to the speaker.
I have not heard the MLs they should not have this issue, except perhaps in the bass frequencies.

I have garnered an appreciation for what bass only sounds like by disconnect the Salon2 crossovers and listen to the upper frequencies only, the bass only (150hz and below). Listing to bass only frequencies eventually leads to redrum :p

- Rich
 
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