MartinLogan Renaissance 15A Speaker Measurements and Room Influence

Sonnie

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I may do more later... it's quite the task building them. I could do another set for the side corner, but I'm not sure it would be worth it.

Everything I do is for two-channel. I'm not all that concerned with movies at this point... never have been outside of doing Dirac Live.
 

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@Sonnie ,I wouldn't bother with side wall diffusion. The diffusers in front block the ones behind and it just doesn't make sense to use these things in those locations.

Behind the panels is perfect. Corner traps and back wall absorption (which you already have) and you are set.
 

Sonnie

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Oh I haven't planned on side walls... I have huge tapestry artwork framed and hung up. No acoustic value at all.

It's sounding really really good with Dirac smoothing out things up to 700Hz right now.
 

Luciano

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"Overlay ... not much difference in response between absorption and no treatment"

I think that that if you want to look at the difference between absorption and without.
Then it is a correct finding that it do not have a big impact on frequency response.
You should instead look at the decay times in the REW graphs like in the spectrogram.
 

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"Overlay ... not much difference in response between absorption and no treatment"

I think that that if you want to look at the difference between absorption and without.
Then it is a correct finding that it do not have a big impact on frequency response.
You should instead look at the decay times in the REW graphs like in the spectrogram.
I will post those up later today. I did look at both, but John Mulcahy (REW) stated ETC was probably best indicator.
 

Sonnie

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I finally got around to remembering this. There is indeed some difference when viewing the ETC graphs with overlay. My guess is Wayne and Dennis will be better able to point out the differences that are heard between the two.

I also plan on building a large really thick portable absorption panel. It will basically sit in front of the diffusion panel allowing some space behind the panel, which I am told is more effective. I already have the GOM cloth and I have the Rockwool 7.25" thick on order that will be here next week. Once I get those built I will do more measurements to see how much difference there is in those and the previous panels I had.

Absorption vs No Treatment - taming the more serious reflections at 13m.
absorption_vs_no_treatment.png



Absorption vs Diffusion - I am not sure if this would be considered significant or not, but there is definitely a difference between 10-14m.
absorption_vs_diffusion.png
 

Sonnie

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Here's another look at absorption vs diffusion using the impulse response.
absorption_vs_diffusion_impulse.png
 

Sonnie

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Here's the .mdat file in case anyone is interested in digging further into the charts... I'm about ignorant to what I'm looking at here.
 

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  • 15A_Testing_Treatments.mdat
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Sonnie

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If I understand this correctly, we are unable to hear reflections below -20dB... so in fact I would not hear any reflections in my room when using the absorption panels.

From: https://users.aalto.fi/~ktlokki/Publs/mst_laukkanen.pdf

3.4.1 Toole et al.

41319

Figure 9: Detection thresholds for a single lateral reflection. Different colors represent
results from different studies conducted with various test signals exhibiting
different degrees of temporal extension (continuity). All studies are conducted in
anechoic chamber. Drawn after Toole [56].

Toole et al. have contributed significantly to the research of sound perception in
small rooms [42,55,56]. They have striven to solve the relationship between objective
measurements and perceptual effects in small room acoustics. However, as Toole
states in [56] and [55], a lot is yet to be done to completely understand sound
perception in small rooms. Toole et al. have studied sound perception both from
the entertaining point of view, as well as from the perspective of critical listeners.
Thus, a large part of Toole’s research is relevant to this thesis.
The most interesting results from Toole’s experiments are the thresholds for
different perceptual cues for reflections coming from different directions in different
time delays. Large part of the listening tests have been done with speech, but some
studies also with music. Figure 9 illustrates the results of different studies in the
reflection perception. All studies were conducted in anechoic listening conditions,
with slight variations in the horizontal angle for the lateral test reflection. From Fig.
9 it can be picked that with pink noise and classical music, the perception threshold
for a single lateral reflection is approximately -20 dB related to the direct sound
during the first 50 ms. With clicks, threshold is as high as -10 dB within first 3 ms,
but drops dramatically after that.

Figure 10 illustrates results of Barron [4] drawn after Toole [56, p. 87], where
the perceptual effects of single lateral reflection arriving from 40 to the side was
studied. Listening tests were made with classical recordings (Mozart) [42]. Figure
10 illustrates that lateral reflections coming within the first 10 ms causes image shift
towards the direction of the reflection. In control room, this means widening of the
stereo image and thus enhancing the sweet spot size if the room is symmetric. The
amount of widening required for the stereo image is a matter of opinion. Compromise
has to be done between the stereo image accuracy and the widening of the stereo
image, e.g., size of the sweet spot. From Fig. 10 it can be also seen that lateral
reflections within 10 - 35 ms introduce tone coloration regardless of the level related
to the direct sound.

Other notable point in Toole’s experiments is that the sequence of several lowlevel
reflections and a large single reflection were observed almost equally loud [56, p.
91]. The message here is that it could be misleading to assume that if large reflecting
surfaces are broken on the basis of impulse response measurements, the audible
effects of reflection will be reduced. This kind of effect discloses the persistent problem
in a relation between measurements and psychoacoustics, as human perception
is usually nonlinear while measurements are linear.

Considering room reflections, Toole concludes that the reflections from front and
back do not have any positive effects on the listening preference. Instead, early
lateral reflections from the side seemed to contribute in a positive way at least in
entertaining purpose. It can be also concluded from the study of Imamura et al. [26],
that absorption of the first reflections on the side walls causes "the width of sound
image" to be narrower and "Envelopment" to be lower. Absorption of the first
reflections on the front wall and ceiling make "the width of sound image" narrower
and "Clarity" increase. Absorption of the first reflections on the back wall also
makes "the width of sound image" narrower and "Clarity" increase.
In [56, p. 177], Toole presents results of a massive listening test conducted
by Olive et al. [41], where three different loudspeakers were subjectively rated in
four different rooms. First experiment was conducted in a "live" manner, where
listeners evaluated all three loudspeakers in one room before moving to the next one.
Reproduction was recorded binaurally for each loudspeaker-room combination, and
the same test was conducted using headphones. Results showed that a loudspeaker
was highly significant and room was not a significant factor and that the results
of live and binaural tests were essentially the same. From this it can be deduced
that listeners adapted to a room and were able to judge the pure loudspeakers quite
accurate.

In a second test, using the same binaural recordings, room-loudspeaker combinations
were judged in different context. Now listeners rated the same loudspeakers
located in the same position between the four rooms. Thus, there were four comparisons
per one trial. In the second test room became the highest significant variable
whereas the effect of loudspeaker was not found significant, meaning that there were
highly significant differences in preference due to the room factor. These results show
that adaptation has a major effect when judging loudspeaker performance. However,
this is not saying that there were no interactions between individual loudspeakers
and individual rooms. There actually were, and especially at low-frequencies. It was
also noticed, that in multiple comparison tasks, listeners tend to make judgements
on a relative scale but they were less able to make consistent judgements on an
absolute scale. Thus, test showed that the context in which comparison were made,
influences listeners’ preference ratings significantly.

3.4.2 King et al.

41318

Figure 10: Subjective effects of a single reflection arriving from 40 side, including
the effect of reflection level and delay compared with direct sound. Data is from
Barron [4] and picture is drawn after Toole [56, p. 87]. Experiments were done
with classical music. The lowest curve indicates the hearing threshold. Above this
at short delays (less than 10 ms), listeners reported an image shift in the direction
of reflection. At delays larger than 10 ms, listeners reported "spatial impression"
where the source appeared to broaden and the music started to gain body and
fullness. The spatial impression increased as the level of reflection increased, which
is illustrated in the figure by the increased shading density. The curve of an equal
spatial impression shows that for short delays, the reflections must be higher in level
to produce the same effect. At high levels and long delays, disturbing echoes were
heard, which is the upper right corner in the figure. At delays between 10 ms and
40 ms and at all levels, some tone coloration was heard (colored brush strokes in
the picture). The areas identified as exhibiting an image shift refer to impressions
that the principal image has been shifted toward the reflection image. At short
delays, this would sum up the localization of reflection to the leading loudspeaker.
At longer delays, the image would likely be perceived to be larger and less clear.
Finally, at yet longer delays and higher sound levels, a second image at the location
of the reflection will be perceived as an individual sound source. From the data of
Barron, it is not clear where exactly these divisions occur.


King, Leonard and Sikora have conducted several studies related to the effect of
room reflections in critical listening [32] [34]. In [32], King et al. explored sound
engineer performance when lateral first reflections were, minimized, maximized and
diffused. Sound engineers were asked to adjust the level of a female soprano to
the orchestral backing track in all these three conditions. The results shows that
there were slight differences in the time needed for completing the task depending
on the order in which different treatments were tested. However, after adaptation
to the test procedure, normal performance was achieved. No significant difference
was noticed in accuracy between different treatments. Conclusion was that due to
the adaptation, no prominent difference in sound engineer performance occurred
between three alternative side wall treatments. However, there is a limit to what we
can adapt to, and as Toole speculates in [57], adaptation very likely utilizes some
portion of our neural capacity and perhaps causes fatigue and stress. Thus, working
longer periods of time in conditions that requires adaptation to a certain deficiency
or a coloration could probably be unhealthy for mixing engineer. However, this kind
of effects are still waiting to be proven and topic needs further research by neural
scientists in collaboration with acousticians.

In [34], Leonard et al. studied the effect of a room in adjusting reverberation level
in a mix. The task was to add a reverberation to a fixed stereo mix, first in a standard
studio control room (averaged T60 of 0.2 s), and second in a highly reflective mix
room (averaged T60 of 0.4 s). Results showed significant differences in reverberation
levels set in each acoustical environment. The reverberation was mixed 1.32 dB
lower in the reflective environment on average. Thus, the conclusion was that the
room treatment had a significant effect to the reverberation level adjustment.

absorption_only.png
 

pratul

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I continue to be impressed with your setup. I can't believe how good your impulse response graphs are even without absorption or diffusion. I am struggling to figure out why I am getting so many reflections. Adding absorption hasn't made any measurable difference yet. :(
 

Sonnie

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As you can see from my response charts, it has not affected my response for the most part (between no treatments and absorption)... however, it has lowered the reflections when viewing the ETC. What I'm not sure about is since it did not appear to affect the frequency response, are the reflections already too low to hear to begin with. I've read information in various places that say get the reflections under -10dB, but -15dB is better... and -20dB is even better. I assume they are referring to -20dB below the level of the direct sound. If that is the case... I'm having a hard time understanding how our measurements at the listening position would not be accurate and represent the direct sound only, considering the reflections are at -20dB below the direct sound. It seems the reflections would have to be as loud as the direct sound for it to be measured at the same level as the direct sound.
 

pratul

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As you can see from my response charts, it has not affected my response for the most part (between no treatments and absorption)... however, it has lowered the reflections when viewing the ETC. What I'm not sure about is since it did not appear to affect the frequency response, are the reflections already too low to hear to begin with. I've read information in various places that say get the reflections under -10dB, but -15dB is better... and -20dB is even better. I assume they are referring to -20dB below the level of the direct sound. If that is the case... I'm having a hard time understanding how our measurements at the listening position would not be accurate and represent the direct sound only, considering the reflections are at -20dB below the direct sound. It seems the reflections would have to be as loud as the direct sound for it to be measured at the same level as the direct sound.
I read and understood the same and I do see the reflections reported in my graphs. Which I find really interesting because my room has absorption on the lower 4' of all the walls and I have absorption on the ceiling where the first reflections would be for all front speakers. Plus I have the 4 bass traps. My reflections should be really low but they are not. See the graphs below.
Center-IR-0421.jpg


You can see the difference when compared to your IR. Yours looks perfect!!

Yours-vs-mine0421.jpg


Wonder if my measurements are capturing other sounds and maybe my noise floor is high? I am thinking it might be since my first reflection at 5.3 ms is actually higher than the impulse. That is not possible. A reflection has to be lower than the impulse itself.

Have to do a bit more testing after my theater is back up again. Repainting right now.
 

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Yeah... that is quite odd at 5ms for it to be that high.

How do our rooms compare and where are your speakers in relation?

My room is 19.5ft wide x 23.5ft deep x 8.5ft high (actually average is about 8ft with the stage and riser considered).

Of course my speakers are 5ft from front and side walls.

I am also only measuring one speaker... left speaker in this case.

John also says ETC is better to look at for reflections... not exactly sure what the difference is.
 

pratul

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Anthem MCA 50
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Monoprice Monolith 7x200
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Oppo
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M&K S-150 THX
Center Channel Speaker
M&K S-150 THX
Surround Speakers
M&K SS-150 THX
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M&K SS-250 THX
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Monoprice Caliber
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Monoprice Caliber
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M&K MX5000 M2 x2 + SVS PB-16 Ultra x 2
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JVC RS40U
Screen
Stewart 120" Greyhawk
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ROKU Ultra2
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HBO Max, Amazon Prime, Netflix, Xfinity
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People still use satellite systems? ;)
My room is 13.86ft wide, 33.86ft long and 8.86ft high in the front and 8ft high in the rear due to the riser. The front speakers are about 2ft from the front wall and right next to the side wall. Both main speakers have the bass trap behind them and absorber covered wall on one side. I'll share pictures once the theater is operational. Right now everything is covered in plastic :)

The graphs above are from one speaker. In this case it is the center speaker which has the worst reflections.
The first graph, with just my center channel is an ETC graph. The compare graph is IR.
 

Sonnie

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Ahh... so my center would probably look bad too, being right up against the wall. I don't really worry about center and surrounds as far as reflections. I'm only concerned with two-channel music listening. With movies being all over the place and Atmos... all the ambient noises, etc, reflections just don't matter to me that much. My acoustic treatments are all geared towards getting two-channel music correct.

Your left only speaker may not be as bad as your center when compared to mine.
 

pratul

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Feb 7, 2021
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140
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Johns Creek GA
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Anthem AVM 70
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Anthem MCA 20
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Anthem MCA 50
Other Amp
Monoprice Monolith 7x200
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo
Front Speakers
M&K S-150 THX
Center Channel Speaker
M&K S-150 THX
Surround Speakers
M&K SS-150 THX
Surround Back Speakers
M&K SS-250 THX
Front Height Speakers
Monoprice Caliber
Rear Height Speakers
Monoprice Caliber
Subwoofers
M&K MX5000 M2 x2 + SVS PB-16 Ultra x 2
Video Display Device
JVC RS40U
Screen
Stewart 120" Greyhawk
Streaming Equipment
ROKU Ultra2
Streaming Subscriptions
HBO Max, Amazon Prime, Netflix, Xfinity
Satellite System
People still use satellite systems? ;)
Unfortunately even the left and right channels are equally bad :(
Also, see how the size of each line (vertical) is so much smaller in your graph. Especially towards the right. These are apparent in the ETC graph and not in the IR graph. Maybe this is why John recommends using ETC graphs. Although, I have no idea what that shows ;) it is just different.

I am glad you shared your measurement. It gives me the ability to have a good reference to compare against. Thanks for that!

Yours-vs-mine-left0421.jpg
 

Sonnie

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StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
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McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape | FireCube | Lenova X1 - Intel NUC for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
I would make your graph axis smaller... as anything out past 100ms is irrelevant, if I understand it correctly. You might try -10m to 100m. That will make it a bit easier to see.
 
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