MadVR HTPC

[VoidX]

What about HDMI 2.1 ??? So far as I can tell only Nvidia 30xx series GFX cards supports HDMI 2.1... Yea, those aren't cheap...

Do you really need that for home cinema? Movies beyond 4K60 4:2:0 are not even supported by any distribution standard other than actual cinemas (they support 4K240 4:4:4 since like 2008), 2.0 supports all HDR standards, PCs can't receive eARC, so there's no need for it other than gaming.

 

[natty]

Only upscaling takes up entire high-end video-cards, but if you pass on it (it doesn't make that much of a difference from a distance with moving picture anyway), you can use the best features, like HDR to SDR conversion on a 10 year old potato like I do.

Really? That's great to know. I don't need to scale at all. I just need to use the dynamic tone mapping. That would be fantastic. I will give it another try. Dang, my laptop with Intel HD Graphics 4000 can't do it.

 

[ddude003]

Do you really need that for home cinema? Movies beyond 4K60 4:2:0 are not even supported by any distribution standard other than actual cinemas (they support 4K240 4:4:4 since like 2008), 2.0 supports all HDR standards, PCs can't receive eARC, so there's no need for it other than gaming.

The OP, @mechman, said he was looking for a MadVR compatible card with HDMI 2.1 port...
And I have a full 4K UltraHD HDR video solution so I don't "need" anything...

 

[VoidX]

Really? That's great to know. I don't need to scale at all. I just need to use the dynamic tone mapping. That would be fantastic. I will give it another try. Dang, my laptop with Intel HD Graphics 4000 can't do it.

Well, the 5500 can, but we were talking about HTPCs. Sorry for forgetting laptops, I guess we could say 8 years for them.

The OP, @mechman, said he was looking for a MadVR compatible card with HDMI 2.1 port...

What does HDMI 2.1 add to an HTPC? I'm trying to help him save time and money by pointing it out that a GTX 3000 series card is unneccessary unless he wants to game.

And I have a full 4K UltraHD HDR video solution so I don't "need" anything...

Good to know, but it was a collective "you" meaning anyone.

 

[mechman]

The more I go down this rabbit hole the more confused I get. I was under the impression that you need a high end video card for DTM. You don't? And if you're going to go high end, it makes zero sense to not include HDMI 2.1 I would think. The only thing I was looking for was something that would apply DTM to my 4K UHD movie files on my server as I play them.

Why would anyone want to convert from HDR to SDR? That seems counter productive to me.

Regardless, I'm off this train now as it is way too much trouble for very little benefit. If JRiver ever comes out with a simple easy solution that has a decent write up on how to do it, I'll jump back onboard. But until then, I'll just sit back and enjoy what I have.

 

[ddude003]

What does HDMI 2.1 add to an HTPC? I'm trying to help him save time and money by pointing it out that a GTX 3000 series card is unneccessary unless he wants to game.

You may want to qualify that "game" part to, "unless he wants to game or do other things like calibration at 4K 120hz"... And I think your talking about very high end / high resolution first person online shooters (twitch) or racing sims... Most "games" work just fine at 4K 60hz or less systems...

 

[Michael Boeker]

Why would anyone want to convert from HDR to SDR? That seems counter productive to me.

SDR content is always supposed to be displayed with peak brightness of 48 nits on a projector or 100 nits on a TV. However, most displays have more brightness than this, but not enough for full HDR. You convert from HDR to SDR when you don't have enough brightness. Anything that has less brightness than HDR is called SDR in regards to how it is displayed. Unless you are using a display capable of 1000 nits or more, then everything you have ever watched is in SDR.

Tone mapping is the process of converting from HDR to SDR and compresses the brightness above diffuse white to fit the maximum brightness of the display while keeping the diffuse white at the same levels as SDR content. Almost all TV brands and a few projector brands (with proper setup) do this automatically. In these instances you use the HDR mode. If you have a PJ without tone mapping, then is is done by something before the display like standalone devices (Lumagen, madVR Envy) or HTPC with software (JRVR or madVR). In these instances you set the projector to SDR mode.

If JRiver ever comes out with a simple easy solution that has a decent write up on how to do it, I'll jump back onboard. But until then, I'll just sit back and enjoy what I have.

HDR tone mapping using JRiver's Video Renderer (JRVR) It is already the default setting In JRiver Media Center and works for most with settings set to Auto. You do need to specify your peak brightness, but that is required for any dynamic tone mapping system.

 

[mechman]

So you lose the expanded gamut in this process too? I didn’t think that DTM converted to SDR. That’s interesting. I always thought of it as an algorithm computing the values (brightest/darkest highlights) for each particular scene in real time. While I realize most displays, projectors in particular, are incapable of reaching max values for HDR, I always thought that DTM would ‘compute’ it down to the particular display’s level.

I guess it makes sense though. You’ve made me even more satisfied with the HD Fury and it’s player led Dolby Vision hack!

 

[VoidX]

So you lose the expanded gamut in this process too?

Depends, but in most implementations, yes, BT.2020 is transformed back to BT.709, and since that matrix contains negative values, clipping can occur in both directions, even for dark parts. This would kill the hue, so the brightness is distorted in such a way that the hue stays. The only fix to exist for this as far as I know is in the madVR Envy.

 

[mechman]

Depends, but in most implementations, yes, BT.2020 is transformed back to BT.709, and since that matrix contains negative values, clipping can occur in both directions, even for dark parts. This would kill the hue, so the brightness is distorted in such a way that the hue stays. The only fix to exist for this as far as I know is in the madVR Envy.

This does not seem to be a good implementation. But I am by no means an expert on the subject obviously.

 

[Michael Boeker]

So you lose the expanded gamut in this process too?

No. You can send BT.2020 from the Lumagen, madVR Envy, madVR, JRVR and have the projector be in "SDR" mode to accept the tone mapped content. Lumagen calls it outputting "HDR in a SDR container" and refers to it as SDR2020. You can also output to other color spaces such as DCI-P3.

I didn’t think that DTM converted to SDR. That’s interesting. I always thought of it as an algorithm computing the values (brightest/darkest highlights) for each particular scene in real time. While I realize most displays, projectors in particular, are incapable of reaching max values for HDR, I always thought that DTM would ‘compute’ it down to the particular display’s level.

It does exactly what you describe, but then it is no longer HDR, is it? HDR is content without tone mapping. SDR is either content with diffuse white at 100% or output with brightness higher than diffuse white that has been tone mapped. SDR is the mode the projector is in (usually) when accepting tone mapped content.

Part of the problem with terminology is that SDR and HDR content (Blu-ray or UHD Blu-ray) has a very specific description. HDR content has BT.2020 color space and brightness peaks of 1000-10000 nits. However, when we display it we change the color space to fit the display and change the brightness to fit the display. We still might call it HDR since that is how it started, but the end result isn't the same. When we tone map using a Lumagen or similar, we then put the projector in SDR mode even though the output is nothing like SDR content.

 

[mechman]

That all makes sense Michael! Thanks for that!!

I’ve recently read of some comparisons between my setup (HD-Fury) and the MadVR. Supposedly the HD-Fury is quite a bit better. It was even said to be better than the Panasonic UB820. I’d be interested to hear of any news/exposure you have to the 3D LUT calibration capabilities of JRiver if it ever comes to fruition.

 

[Michael Boeker]

That all makes sense Michael! Thanks for that!!

I’ve recently read of some comparisons between my setup (HD-Fury) and the MadVR. Supposedly the HD-Fury is quite a bit better. It was even said to be better than the Panasonic UB820. I’d be interested to hear of any news/exposure you have to the 3D LUT calibration capabilities of JRiver if it ever comes to fruition.

That all makes sense Michael! Thanks for that!!

I’ve recently read of some comparisons between my setup (HD-Fury) and the MadVR. Supposedly the HD-Fury is quite a bit better. It was even said to be better than the Panasonic UB820. I’d be interested to hear of any news/exposure you have to the 3D LUT calibration capabilities of JRiver if it ever comes to fruition.

The 3D LUT capability in JRiver's JRVR was added a few weeks ago. I'm sending my meters out for NIST certification this week and will be doing some testing when I get them back.

 

[mechman]

3D LUT is a game changer. I eagerly await your findings!