Lows very boomy when EQ'd to flat

jan.didden

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
15
When I EQ my subs (~100Hz xover to ESLs) for reasonable flat response on REW with a UMIK-2, they sound extremely boomy and much too loud.
When I set the sub level to what sounds to me like a reasonable level matched to the main speakers, and I measure with RTA, the sub level is almost 15dB lower than the main speakers.
What could cause that descrepancy? Could it be some setting in the measurement I may have missed?
I used the standard swept sine method.

Jan
 
Last edited:

John Mulcahy

REW Author
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
7,403
If you are on Windows it could be because noise cancellation processing is being applied to the stereo output of the mic, rolling off the low end. That should not happen if you use the WASAPI exclusive device entry (name starts EXCL).
 

ddude003

AV Addict
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,453
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid 2xAsus1080ti GFX, Audirvana Studio, Hang Loose Convolver, Tone Projects Michelangelo, Pulsar Massive & 8200, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP-X700 /M Ultra HD 4K HDR & PS5
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna, Lumin iApp, Samsung & Yamaha
Streaming Equipment
Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
What ESLs and Sub(s) do you have? And the Pre, Amp or AVR? And wondering how and/or why you crossover at ~100Hz? Size of room and any room treatment?
 

AudiocRaver

Senior Reviewer
Staff member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
974
Location
North Carolina, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver
Main Amp
Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore-2 (x2 as monoblock)
Additional Amp
Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic (x2)
Center Channel Speaker
Phantom Center
Surround Speakers
NSM Audio Model 5 2-Way (x2)
Subwoofers
JBL ES150P Powered Subwoofer (x2)
I gave my opinion on your other thread, over here.
 

jan.didden

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
15
I gave my opinion on your other thread, over here.

Yes that sounds similar to what I have. But it doesn't make sense, does it. If the mike measures it flat, why would it sound boomy.
I'll check out John's suggestion tomorrow.

Jan
 

AudiocRaver

Senior Reviewer
Staff member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
974
Location
North Carolina, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver
Main Amp
Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore-2 (x2 as monoblock)
Additional Amp
Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic (x2)
Center Channel Speaker
Phantom Center
Surround Speakers
NSM Audio Model 5 2-Way (x2)
Subwoofers
JBL ES150P Powered Subwoofer (x2)
It's a mystery.
 

jan.didden

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
15
What ESLs and Sub(s) do you have? And the Pre, Amp or AVR? And wondering how and/or why you crossover at ~100Hz? Size of room and any room treatment?
I'm not sure what the equipment brand has to do with it?
Room is about 10m long, 6m wide, 4.6m heigh. Speakers are in the middle, pretty much standing free.
Some damping panels on the walls.
I tested with both 2nd order and 4th order xovers. Not much difference in the anomaly I mentioned.

Jan
 

ddude003

AV Addict
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,453
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid 2xAsus1080ti GFX, Audirvana Studio, Hang Loose Convolver, Tone Projects Michelangelo, Pulsar Massive & 8200, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP-X700 /M Ultra HD 4K HDR & PS5
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna, Lumin iApp, Samsung & Yamaha
Streaming Equipment
Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
I'm not sure what the equipment brand has to do with it?
Room is about 10m long, 6m wide, 4.6m heigh. Speakers are in the middle, pretty much standing free.
Some damping panels on the walls.
I tested with both 2nd order and 4th order xovers. Not much difference in the anomaly I mentioned.

Jan
Knowing what equipment you have would allow us to read the specs and get a feeling for what might be going on with any combination, connection issues and gain structures... If they are just panels or also have woofers, firing forward and/or rearward, frequencies and so forth... Are the Subs passive or active and what are they driven by, does your amp double down when your ESL dive down in impedance when the frequency goes up... Lots of things to consider... Never mind...
 
Last edited:

jan.didden

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
15
One idea a friend gave me: I am using the sine sweep test signal. Could it be that the 'dwell time' at the low frequencies is too short for the room modes to build up, while with music playing, they have that time.
That would mean that the measurement will be lower than the perceived strength with music.
Maybe try stepped sine measurement, although that seems to be meant for distortion measurement, but should also show fundamental?

Jan
 

John Mulcahy

REW Author
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
7,403
Could it be that the 'dwell time' at the low frequencies is too short for the room modes to build up
No, a common misconception arising from a misunderstanding of how sweep measurements work. The sweep is the stimulus, the mic captures the response. The ratio of response to stimulus yields the transfer function. The response to the low frequency part of the stimulus has the entire duration of the sweep plus additional capture time after the sweep ends to be included in the calculation.
 

jan.didden

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
15
Thanks John, that's useful.
I'll attack this again in the weekend when I have some time.
If the WASAPI (EXCL) doesn't solve it, where should I look next?

Jan
 

John Mulcahy

REW Author
Joined
Apr 3, 2017
Messages
7,403
Make sure enhancements are not enabled on the Windows audio input properties Advanced tab (System - Sound - Related Settings on right hand side - Sound Control Panel - Recording - select UMIK, click Properties button) or Enhancements tab. Some PCs may have a separate application with similar features, e,g, Waves MaXXAudio, HP Audio Center, myASUS.
 

jan.didden

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
15
Make sure enhancements are not enabled on the Windows audio input properties Advanced tab (System - Sound - Related Settings on right hand side - Sound Control Panel - Recording - select UMIK, click Properties button) or Enhancements tab
That fixed it John! At the Enhancements tab, there are several enhancements you can select, one of them being 'low frequency protection' or something like that.
None of the enhancement were selected, but there's an overall selection 'disable all enhancements' which I selected.
Now the apparent bass closely tracks the frequency response in the analyser.
I did not find a similar enhancement menu in the audio output dialog, so apparently it is only available for inputs (in this case the UMIK-2).

So, on to explore more REW wonders ;-) !

Jan
 

AudiocRaver

Senior Reviewer
Staff member
Joined
Nov 21, 2016
Messages
974
Location
North Carolina, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Onkyo TX-SR705 Receiver
Main Amp
Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore-2 (x2 as monoblock)
Additional Amp
Behringer A500 Reference Power Amplifier
Front Speakers
MartinLogan Electromotion ESL Electrostatic (x2)
Center Channel Speaker
Phantom Center
Surround Speakers
NSM Audio Model 5 2-Way (x2)
Subwoofers
JBL ES150P Powered Subwoofer (x2)
Cool. Glad you figured it out.
 

Johnnie

New Member
Joined
Dec 20, 2017
Messages
13
Location
St Catharies On. Canada
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz SR6012
Main Amp
Marantz
Additional Amp
Denon
Other Amp
JVC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony (3, one HD), LG (region free) Onkyo CD player
Front Speakers
Polk RTiA9
Center Channel Speaker
Polk CSiA6
Surround Speakers
Kef Q15
Surround Back Speakers
Paradigm Reference Monitor 7 v2
Subwoofers
Paradigm PW2200, Paradigm Sub 10 & 12, Monolith 10
What ESLs and Sub(s) do you have? And the Pre, Amp or AVR? And wondering how and/or why you crossover at ~100Hz? Size of room and any room treatment?
I also have (4) subs crossed over higher. Equalization frequencies in sub setup is many times that of the AVR for main speakers. If you can spread your subs around the room generally equally from the listening position you can cross them over higher with better results (confirming with REW).
 
Top Bottom