In your experience will room correction level the playing field between speakers?

[Bebbetufs]

Is DRC so powerfull it makes speakers below $30.000 virtually the same?

The past 15years I've wanted to upgrade my B&W604s2 speakers. I found them tireing to listen to and muddy with complex music enough to turn me off critical listening. My amp is a Denon AVR3805.

My room is very bad. It is an attic where the front wall, side wall and rear wall are all slanted at 47 degrees, while the right wall is vertical at the speaker position and open to the kitchen at the listening position. The bottom 60cm or 2' walls are vertical parallel walls This creates room modes in the bottom 60cm and very uneven reflections from there up. I have not upgraded my speakers as I expected my room to smother any speaker investment. Instead I built a lot of bass traps to control the bass and waited for DRC to work well.

I finally got a 2X4 MiniDSP with Dirac. My old B&W completely came to life, and I find myself looking for new albums and listening critically for the first time in years.

Due to this massive improvement I thought it might finally be time to upgrade the speakers. If my old ones could sound this good with DRC then perahps a much better set would improve soundstage and imaging even further. I found a nice pair of Focal Aria 926 that I'm currently auditioning. Without Dirac the difference was amazing. The Focal outperformed the B&Ws massively. My immediate reaction was that the Focals sounded as good without DRC as the old B&Ws sounded with it enabled.

But, here's the conunudrum: After properly calibrating both speakers they sund virtually the same. I am currently A/B-ing them and switching between their respective Dirac calibrations. I really struggle to hear the difference. If anything there are slight differneces in coloration. The soundstage is virtually identical. Not very deep, but that is my room. The B&Ws are possibly slightly less revealing, but the difference is so slight I at one stage had to verify wich pair I was listening to as I forgot which one I had plugged in.

My dream is to get a better and deeper soundstage, but I can't justify spending the money on the Focal. I will have to return them. The improvement before DRC is vast, but after calibratin it's too slight. Is DRC so powerfull it becomes almost pointless to play around with speakers in my price range? Below 30k, or can I expect to find improvement if I keep testing and calibrating speakers? As you all know it is time consuming to collect, calibrate and test speakers at home and return them, so if I can expect minimal improvement after calibration I may as well just keep what I've got and spend the money elsewhere, for example on an amplifier. What are your thoughts?

BTW. I'm sorry if this has been covered. I did a few searches and found nothing similar.

 

[NBPK402]

Personally I believe that room treatments make a bigger difference than buying newer equipment does. I am also a firm believer in Dirac being the best for tuning your room, but it can only do so much...hence room treatment. The combo is great.

 

[Bebbetufs]

After a lot of testing I must agree. My room is well treated. I't may be overdampened, but its better than listening to assymmetrical reflections.

I'm currently listening through my old speakers. The new ones have been carefully put back in their boxes. A great pair for those not wanting to mess with Dirac. I'm finding myself wondering if I can get similar results with a pair of bookshelves? If I can get the same results with bookshelves combined with my dual subs, I might be able focus more on esthetics? I'm also curious if smaller speakers will breathe better in the corner under the sloping roof?

 

[Tony V.]

Can we back up the bus for one moment and may I ask what microphone your using and how do you have it positioned? Auto room eqs only work as well as the placement and type of mic used. Often the listening position is wrong for example to close to a rear wall or smack centre of the room so let's start with that first.

 

[Bebbetufs]

Thanks. From your reply I get the impression you assume something went wrong with my calibration since the Focals ended up sounding similar to the B&Ws. I may not have made myself clear. In my experience the B&Ws saw a night and day improvement, whereas the much better Focal didn't improve a lot. My assumption after some trials was that there was not much more that could be done for the better speakers thus my conclusion that DRC makes upgrading pointless.

If you would expect the Focals to retain more of their edge over the B&Ws after calibration it is very interesting. Perhaps I can get even better results with Dirac and even better speakers? Or do you think it is an indication something has gone wrong in my system? Perhaps the AVR receiver?

In case you think something is off please let me know and I will tell you the steps I've taken.

 

[Tony V.]

Let's just start with how your seating is situated in the room, do you have anything behind them?

 

[Bebbetufs]

The intention with this thread is to uncover, in general terms, opinoions on how DRC affects voicing. I appreciate the effort to help. It looks like I wanted advice on sorting things out. I apologize for not being clear.

My hypothesis is when the speakers and room are optimized many the individual quirks and faults of each speaker is minimized. Since they play a large part in giving a speaker its voice all speakers end up sounding more or less the same after DRC. The assumption is that as long as a speaker is of a reasonable quality it does not matter what brand or model I buy as long as I run DRC. I was wondering if others with more experience have reached similar conclusions. If so I will stop wasting time looking at speakers, as the ones I can afford are all likely to have areas which need improvemen. Hence they will likely see a large improvement after DRC.

(EDIT) With regards to my room I feel discussing it will take the thread off topic, unless you are making the point that in a normal room DRC will not remove each speakers characteristics and that my experience is primarily due to my room.

 

[NBPK402]

When I had my JBL 2360a speakers and my Klipsch Heresy speakers which def sound different, and ran Dirac...the tonality of all the speakers were the same.

 

[Bebbetufs]

I would not have expected that, those speakers look very different to each other . Maybe that's why the rep looked defeated for a sec when I told him I would run room correction, because he new I would them?

Has anyone experienced the same between floor standers vs bookshelf speakers with a sub? Do even they sound much the same after DRC?

Like you said DRC can only do so much and the room obviously plays a crucial role also with DIrac. The Focals sounded incredible in the shop without DRC. I have never heard such a detailed soundstage. I felt I could get up and walk amongs the musicians in the studio. It was amazing. Clearly a perfect room with super hi-end equipment needs no digital correction.

After two weeks of playing with positioning and calibration I wasn't even beginning to get close to this potential at home.

 

[Tony V.]

The intention with this thread is to uncover, in general terms, opinoions on how DRC affects voicing. I appreciate the effort to help. It looks like I wanted advice on sorting things out. I apologize for not being clear.

I understand that but placement of the microphone and where you sit will effect how well DRC or any room EQ system will work and can dramatically effect the end results. Trust me as I have played around with mic placement many times and it really does change what you hear at the listening position after calibration.

 

[tesseract]

Different speakers radiate into rooms differently, with widely varying radiation patterns that can not fully be compensated for via DSP.

 

[Bebbetufs]

it is of course possible I'm unable to hear the differences, or that my setup is so limited that they don't manifest. And I've only compared two pairs.

 

[Bebbetufs]

To

I understand that but placement of the microphone and where you sit will effect how well DRC or any room EQ system will work and can dramatically effect the end results.

Good point. In my case the Focals were in the sweetspot when calibrated. They were also calibrated last, so my system and I was better prepared. When A/B'ing the B&Ws were on the inside of the Focals, so further away from the walls and roof. Moreover, they were not in the spot where they were measured as it was taken by the Focals. Still the two pairs sounded so similar I could not tell them apart, at least not after time spent swapping the cables and changing config in miniDSP.

My room is bad, it probably makes it hard to find out which speaker is better after calibration.

 

[Grayson Dere]

When I had my JBL 2360a speakers and my Klipsch Heresy speakers which def sound different, and ran Dirac...the tonality of all the speakers were the same.

That's very interesting! With Dirac turned on do you think you could be blind folded and not tell which speaker was which?

 

[Tony V.]

Thanks for the diagram of your room that helps a lot. Did you try changing the angle of the mic and did you use a tripod or some sort of stand? I am finding it hard to belive that two vastly different speakers sound the same and not clear.

 

[Bebbetufs]

That's very interesting! With Dirac turned on do you think you could be blind folded and not tell which speaker was which?

The two pairs I had sounded the same. I lost track of which pair I was listening to, even without a blindfold.

 

[Bebbetufs]

Thanks for the diagram of your room that helps a lot. Did you try changing the angle of the mic and did you use a tripod or some sort of stand? I am finding it hard to belive that two vastly different speakers sound the same and not clear.

I've not tried different mic angles, only positions. I used a mic proper boom stand. I've made many calibrations.

The speakers sound good and clear. I hear things I've never heard before. Especially the treble is vastly improved. My old B&Ws now sound as good as the much, much better Focals, which is why I'm keeping them and returning the Focals. There was no return on the investment.

The only thing I'm unable to get is the depth of the soundstage the Focals had in the custom made listening room in the shop. It was magnificent.

 

[NBPK402]

With Dirac on in my old setup, I could not tell which speaker was which other than the direction the sound came from. On my current setup I put my old JBL surround speaker as a center, and it is a dramatic difference in sound...this is unturned, as I only have YPAO currently. I will run YAO this weekend, but I anticipate still being able to hear the difference (my old theater I tried Audsessy, and YPAO, and was still able to hear which speaker was which).

 

[AJ Soundfield]

My room is well treated. I't may be overdampened

That would explain both why the speakers are difficult to distinguish once DIRAC'd and also why your soundstage is lacking.
By far the best investment one could make, is buying and reading Floyd Tooles 3rd edition (e)book. It's all explained in painstaking detail and backed by vigorous scientific listening tests, not belief and conjecture ingrained on audio forums.
For 2ch stereo good speakers + reflections beats poor speakers + chaotic non linear "treated" reflections (or lack thereof).
As you've found.

cheers

 

[Bebbetufs]

I agree. For 99% of rooms this is true Unfortunately not in mine, I will have to rely on dampening since due to the many 45 degree angles most reflections end up in the floor, or they get bounced to the opposite wall, creating havoc. Se drawing above.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I will have to rely on dampening since due to the many 45 degree angles most reflections end up in the floor..

..from your zero directivity control choice of loudspeakers. Different brand names, same exact issues.
I saw your diagram. A picture would be better, but obviously a difficult non traditional space. The worse possible environment for a zero directivity control "audiophile" speaker.
Horns and/or other methods can be used to control upper frequencies and gradients/lines can be used to control lower frequencies. Both can greatly mitigate much of what you think are problems. Not eliminate, but rather create a polar pattern far more adapted such such an asymmetric/irregular space. You should still buy Floyd's book

cheers

 

[bvocal]

I have some B&W S3 speakers, they are ridiculously sensitive to the room, as in they never sounded good until I did -extensive- acoustic treatment. I think as long as you keep looking at modern 'audiophile' box speakers with small drivers you will find roughly similar results, perhaps it is the entire style of speaker that, changed, would yield a voicing more interesting.
I find room correction software does, in best case, impose limitations to the sound stage and dynamics and like that, I prefer to get as far as possible with acoustic treatment, reminding me, do not forgo diffusers, you need to absorb the bad things, but then you need to use diffusers to put back the sonic energy where and how you want/need it. Can't just go and absorb tons of stuff and get where you want to go...
After 2 years of learning, designing etc acoustic solutions... when I was done I realized the B&W 603 s3's were not the speaker sound I wanted, so I designed and built some open baffle speakers.
Room correction software, while being fully capable of doing it's appointed job, delivers a smoothed, neutered music like sound, IMHO it sucks the musicality out of things, but that just in my world. It's everything wrong with where modern hifi is going to go. My 2 cents, cheers.

 

[Bebbetufs]

Interesting information from both AJ and bvocal.
So much to learn... The book will be on my wishlist for christmas. If I only hadn't had so many other hobbies and chores I thought I wass too involved, I guess that's why some can make a living out of being consultants.

 

[Bebbetufs]

..from your zero directivity control choice of loudspeakers. Different brand names, same exact issues.
I saw your diagram.

cheers

My new KEF LS50 just arrived at the post office. I thought their co-axial driver would perhaps let me move closer into a more near-field situation. This would create more distance to rear wall leaning over me. Then I realized they probably spread the sound even more than my DM604s.
Perhaps I should return them and look at something completely different. Any thoughts?

 

[AJ Soundfield]

My new KEF LS50 just arrived at the post office. I thought their co-axial driver would perhaps let me move closer into a more near-field situation. This would create more distance to rear wall leaning over me. Then I realized they probably spread the sound even more than my DM604s.
Perhaps I should return them and look at something completely different. Any thoughts?

No, they should be more focused, so that's a good start! I would suggest, like you already said, moving them out a bit closer to you and also toeing them in where they are pointed either straight at your LP, or slightly more inward, where they cross just in front of you.