In search of that perfect spot :)

[pratul]

This weekend I embarked on the search of that perfect spot for the front speakers. I wanted to take a scientific approach this time around. Starting with a room simulation model to estimate all the nodes and then using it to find a spot that worked the best. I took measurements from 15 different spots, marking each spot with masking tape. Once I find the right spot length and width wise, I will start changing the hight of the speaker to find the elusive perfect spot. Once I find the right height, I will tilt the speakers to aim directly at the main listening position. Now I wish I had done that before building the speaker stands.. oh well.. live and learn
The REW graph I have below has been scaled to show all the measurements in one image. It is not how I am evaluating them The one on the top is where I had the front left speaker the past few days. The last one is the current best location.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Here's the thing with the response... you can fix that with ARC in your Anthem. What you can't fix with ARC is soundstage, imaging and depth acuity. You can't measure those characteristics. You have to listen for them. You can improve on them with ARC once you find the sweet spot.

I would start with looking at the recommendations that Cardas shows for a rectangular room: http://www.cardas.com/room_setup_main.php

You can move the speakers around a little... maybe a foot or so in any direction, and experiment with toe-in to get the best sound stage and imaging. Once you got what sounds pretty good... then start working on the response with ARC. You'll likely only need to fix the lower-end.

 

[pratul]

Well... mine is a mixed use setup that needs to work for both watching video and listening to music. I looked at Cardas' recommendations (thanks for sharing) but they will not work for me. He suggested keeping the speakers 4 feet from the side walls ... that will block the screen in my case.
The approach I am taking, is to address as many issues I can thru placement adjustments, absorption and diffusion. Then address whatever remains with DSP.

BTW: What are your favorite tracks for checking sound stage and imaging? Right now I am using the following:
Low Rider - War
Time - Pink Floyd
Money - Pink Floyd
Private investigation - Dire Straits
Auberge - Chris Rea

 

[pratul]

As usual you were right... (note to self.. stop second guessing @Sonnie ). I did find locations for the speakers where they had really good response but the imaging went out of the window. So, back to the drawing board. Going to follow Cardas' golden triangle based placement. Will have to move it around a little bit and maybe lower the speakers a little bit to keep them from interfering with the view of the screen.

Stay tuned as the search continues

 

[Sonnie Parker]

BTW: What are your favorite tracks for checking sound stage and imaging? Right now I am using the following:
Low Rider - War
Time - Pink Floyd
Money - Pink Floyd
Private investigation - Dire Straits
Auberge - Chris Rea

Well... it's really subjective as far as what proper imaging is, but once I heard a few songs on several high-end systems at shows, I came away feeling fairly convinced of being able know if I had duplicated that imaging with those songs. We don't know what the studio engineer intended with the imaging, but I do appreciate those guys who seem to come up with a really good recording.

On Nickel Creek’s Ode To A Butterfly the mandolin is left of center stage, the fiddle is middle of the stage, and the guitar is right of center, all on the front edge of the stage, with the deep bass being behind and between the fiddle and guitar.

On Cassandra Wilson's Strange Fruit the horn player is back left stage... sounds like he is in my wall back there. I place it about 1/3 of the way to the right of the left speaker and center. Her voice is just ever so slightly left of center with the big bass being to the right of her and closer to the front of the stage. I place it about 1/3 of the way to the left of the right speaker and center.

Those two songs are probably the most detailed that have truly pin-point imaging that I can define and have experienced on several seriously high-end systems at shows... thanks to the attendee's willingness to play the tracks for me.

As usual you were right... (note to self.. stop second guessing @Sonnie ). I did find locations for the speakers where they had really good response but the imaging went out of the window. So, back to the drawing board. Going to follow Cardas' golden triangle based placement. Will have to move it around a little bit and maybe lower the speakers a little bit to keep them from interfering with the view of the screen.

Stay tuned as the search continues

lol... wish I could take credit for inventing speaker placement... but we'll contribute that to Cardas and all the guys that have been in my listening room with fifty-eleven different speakers over the years... particularly golden eared Wayne and Dennis who just keep coming back and back (thankfully).

I think you might actually like that the speakers are a little wider... maybe toe them in a little more... and you'll be slightly forward/inside of the triangle. That's how mine are right now, and I love the presentation.

 

[pratul]

Well... it's really subjective as far as what proper imaging is, but once I heard a few songs on several high-end systems at shows, I came away feeling fairly convinced of being able know if I had duplicated that imaging with those songs. We don't know what the studio engineer intended with the imaging, but I do appreciate those guys who seem to come up with a really good recording.

On Nickel Creek’s Ode To A Butterfly the mandolin is left of center stage, the fiddle is middle of the stage, and the guitar is right of center, all on the front edge of the stage, with the deep bass being behind and between the fiddle and guitar.

On Cassandra Wilson's Strange Fruit the horn player is back left stage... sounds like he is in my wall back there. I place it about 1/3 of the way to the right of the left speaker and center. Her voice is just ever so slightly left of center with the big bass being to the right of her and closer to the front of the stage. I place it about 1/3 of the way to the left of the right speaker and center.

Those two songs are probably the most detailed that have truly pin-point imaging that I can define and have experienced on several seriously high-end systems at shows... thanks to the attendee's willingness to play the tracks for me.


lol... wish I could take credit for inventing speaker placement... but we'll contribute that to Cardas and all the guys that have been in my listening room with fifty-eleven different speakers over the years... particularly golden eared Wayne and Dennis who just keep coming back and back (thankfully).

I think you might actually like that the speakers are a little wider... maybe toe them in a little more... and you'll be slightly forward/inside of the triangle. That's how mine are right now, and I love the presentation.

I guess my work is cutout for this long weekend My wife is beginning to hate AVNirvana

After moving the speakers based on Cardas' recommendation the imaging is very clear. I was listening to "The Ballad of Bill Hubbard" (Amused to Death - Roger waters) and could hear the dog barking far away on the right and the guy that is talking in the beginning, it felt like he was sitting next to me on the left.

The other interesting track was Auberge by Chris Rea. You can hear the person walk from the left to right and then back when the track starts and then the door closing in the middle and then the car starting at a distance on the right.

It was also interesting to see how the sound localization moved vertically as I moved higher or lower. I have since used a laser to aim the speakers so the are pointed at the ear level bot converging about a foot behind the MLP.

For this weekend, I am going to fine tune the front speakers where Cardas recommends them to be. Then I am going to move the subs around to get the best response at this new MLP followed by MiniDSP PEQ for the subs and finally ARC measurements.

I will then have two completely different profiles for music and for watching movies.

The fun continues.

PS: I have to say.. I have had the theater and these speakers for almost 20 years. They sounded OK and we enjoyed watching movies. However, preferred our other setup (Yamaha and Definitive Technology) for music. The M&Ks in the theater never sounded good for music.
Then I found REW and AVNirvana and the wonderful folks here that helped me understand and appreciate acoustics and all the things one has to / could do to make things sound better. Since then, I am tweaking things almost every evening and all weekends. The system is getting incrementally better and I am finally able to enjoy the system the way it should have been the past 20 years.

Thank you!

 

[pratul]

I also need to find someplace close by where I can go and listen to a properly setup system so I have something to compare against. Does anyone know of a dealer in the Atlanta, GA area that has a good setup in their showroom?

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I guess my work is cutout for this long weekend My wife is beginning to hate AVNirvana

After moving the speakers based on Cardas' recommendation the imaging is very clear. I was listening to "The Ballad of Bill Hubbard" (Amused to Death - Roger waters) and could hear the dog barking far away on the right and the guy that is talking in the beginning, it felt like he was sitting next to me on the left.

The other interesting track was Auberge by Chris Rea. You can hear the person walk from the left to right and then back when the track starts and then the door closing in the middle and then the car starting at a distance on the right.

It was also interesting to see how the sound localization moved vertically as I moved higher or lower. I have since used a laser to aim the speakers so the are pointed at the ear level bot converging about a foot behind the MLP.

For this weekend, I am going to fine tune the front speakers where Cardas recommends them to be. Then I am going to move the subs around to get the best response at this new MLP followed by MiniDSP PEQ for the subs and finally ARC measurements.

I will then have two completely different profiles for music and for watching movies.

The fun continues.

PS: I have to say.. I have had the theater and these speakers for almost 20 years. They sounded OK and we enjoyed watching movies. However, preferred our other setup (Yamaha and Definitive Technology) for music. The M&Ks in the theater never sounded good for music.
Then I found REW and AVNirvana and the wonderful folks here that helped me understand and appreciate acoustics and all the things one has to / could do to make things sound better. Since then, I am tweaking things almost every evening and all weekends. The system is getting incrementally better and I am finally able to enjoy the system the way it should have been the past 20 years.

Thank you!

Sounds like you are there with the imaging. The Roger Water's Amused to Death CD is pretty cool with a lot of phase tricks. The bass right after the genie in Three Wishes track sounds like it's behind you on the sides if you bass is setup for it. I won't say "if it's setup correctly" because I can't confirm that is what he intended. I do know that Danny Ritchie (GR Research) had a large ballroom at Lonestar Audiofest one year and that is what I heard with Three Wishes and I was able to duplicate it in my room, but it was not automatic.

I can't even begin to tell you how many years I listened to speakers shoved up against the wall with no effort in seating placement... and not really understanding imaging and soundstage. Cardas is what really opened my eyes, then going to shows and listening to a lot of systems. I'm not dead on with the Cardas recommendations on every speaker that's been in my room, but it has always been a good starting point.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I also need to find someplace close by where I can go and listen to a properly setup system so I have something to compare against. Does anyone know of a dealer in the Atlanta, GA area that has a good setup in their showroom?

It would have to be the right dealer. I've been to a lot of dealer showrooms and there was nothing special about them... most of them don't seem to get it. If you can find a dealer with private rooms setup, that might be a good start.

Perhaps you can make it over to Luverne, Alabama at some point in time and have a listen.

 

[pratul]

It would have to be the right dealer. I've been to a lot of dealer showrooms and there was nothing special about them... most of them don't seem to get it. If you can find a dealer with private rooms setup, that might be a good start.

Perhaps you can make it over to Luverne, Alabama at some point in time and have a listen.

Thanks Sonnie! I might take you up on that offer. I need to put a few miles on my car anyways