Have I Over Treated My Room?

[AdamA]

Hello all,

Looking for some advice on my room before I finally decorate, I have not been happy with the sound of my system for a while now.

Mainly due to how poorly all the speakers integrate together in the room, I read that people say when everything is working correctly you get the "bubble" effect where you are immersed in the sound stage.

I have never experienced this & am starting to think I have made mistakes with my room.

I also find bass lacking, after upgrading to dual SVS PB16's I was expecting a more tactile experience but bass just feels lean & thin.

As not to make this post to long I have tried following lots of advice I have researched over the years, this includes finding the best place for my subs with REW & using M.S.O with a 2x4 HD to building my own acoustic bass traps & panels.

I have attached a couple of pictures of my room, please ignore the panels stacked up against the wall, these are normally on the window ledges in front of the windows. The diffuser plates are also temporary as there was a mix up in manufacturing them.

I did not know if to include measurements or not but if anyone would like to see them let me know & I will post them up.

Thanks

Adam

 

[DanDan]

.mdat files are welcome IMO. There are so many factors at play in acoustics which are opposite to intuition and urban myth.
e.g. a highly damped room doesn't sound warm and fluffy, it sounds surgically clear.
In such rooms applying the Bruel and Kjaer Target Curve will restore normality.

 

[AdamA]

.mdat files are welcome IMO. There are so many factors at play in acoustics which are opposite to intuition and urban myth.
e.g. a highly damped room doesn't sound warm and fluffy, it sounds surgically clear.
In such rooms applying the Bruel and Kjaer Target Curve will restore normality.

Would I be best to take measurements with or without EQ active?

Crossover enabled or disabled?

All four seating locations or just one?

 

[DanDan]

Depends what you want to measure, but to give us a sonic insight here, I would measure at the prime seat, with the system running normally, but without an Eq intervention.
So L, R, L+R and again without Sub.

 

[AdamA]

OK so I know you only asked for the main listening position but I measured all four seats with no EQ & an 80Hz crossover.

I also measured the mains set to "large" at each seating location so the full range signal is only sent to that speaker.

I have split up the measurements by seat, I guess you would say seat 1 is the MLP as that is where I sit mainly.

Many thanks for taking a look at my measurements

If you need any more info or measurements just ask.

I also took measurements with M.S.O active which is use to EQ my subs but with Dirac Live disabled but I have not included these measurements.

EDIT: I don't seem to be able to post the links to the files on my Dropbox because they are classed as spam & when I try to attach the files to the post they are to large.

What do I do?

 

[DanDan]

Duplicate one of them and delete most of the measurements, leaving only the few of interest. That should post here. Or make a folder in Dropbox, place your files in it and use 'Copy Dropbox Link' to give us access.

 

[AdamA]

Duplicate one of them and delete most of the measurements, leaving only the few of interest. That should post here. Or make a folder in Dropbox, place your files in it and use 'Copy Dropbox Link' to give us access.

Still does not work place if I place the measurements in to a folder on Dropbox. The link is still flagged as "spam"

Here is seat 1 without the "large" measurements.

 

[AdamA]

Looking over my measurements the area that stands out to me is between 100Hz & 200Hz, I first though this drop in the response was due poor integration between the mains & subs but this drop in the response is also present in the response of just the mains without the subs.

I have attached images of the responses & circled the area I am referring to.

 

[Marc Lombardi]

First ... excellent effort on all fronts ... absorption, diffusion, bass traps. It's difficult to do more in a room that size. I would love to see measurements with Dirac. Seems to me having the Left level 5-6db lower than Center and Right is an issue easily fixed. But most obvious is the 15db jump below 200Hz. I appreciate some like a ramp in the bass but this seems extreme. Have you tried listening for an extended time with Dirac and a flat response?

 

[Martin-Andersen]

I would love to see some RT60 measurements.
I think that you room could be over treated.

 

[Marc Lombardi]

Left with sub RT60 Decay

 

[AdamA]

First ... excellent effort on all fronts ... absorption, diffusion, bass traps. It's difficult to do more in a room that size. I would love to see measurements with Dirac. Seems to me having the Left level 5-6db lower than Center and Right is an issue easily fixed. But most obvious is the 15db jump below 200Hz. I appreciate some like a ramp in the bass but this seems extreme. Have you tried listening for an extended time with Dirac and a flat response?

That 15dB jump below 200Hz is without any EQ so I can only come to the conclusion that it is caused by the room or speaker placement?

 

[Marc Lombardi]

I assume you're crossing over at 80Hz, so the jump is both mains and sub ... hard to imagine the room doing that. Does Dirac flatten it out? Do you have a version of Dirac that allows you to determine the response curve and make it flat as a starting point?

 

[Conrad.]

That 15dB rise is present in each of the L, C, R only responses as well which suggests either room gain, or some sort of EQ on the mains. Are you applying a house curve to the mains?

The big peak at 90Hz is a combination of the mains and the sub being in phase there. I would have expected a lower mains response at 80Hz (it should be 6dB down) but the left only response is actually still rising. Taming those mains should help with that peak.

The peaks at 45Hz and 90Hz are probably overwhelming the fairly deep and wide dip from 20Hz up to 45Hz and again from 60Hz to 90Hz. 60Hz and up is often where people feel the "slam" that it sounds like you're missing. I guess you've tried turning the sub up but find it boomy?

Can you upload measurements for the L, C, R, and sub alone without any EQ? I suspect with some distance tweaks you can get a better response that you'll be able to EQ more successfully.

Lastly, "slam" is a function of SPL. Your measurements are, largely, at about 65dB. Is that the kind of level you listen at? Try turning it up and watching something that has good transients in it and see if that helps.

 

[AdamA]

That 15dB rise is present in each of the L, C, R only responses as well which suggests either room gain, or some sort of EQ on the mains. Are you applying a house curve to the mains?

The big peak at 90Hz is a combination of the mains and the sub being in phase there. I would have expected a lower mains response at 80Hz (it should be 6dB down) but the left only response is actually still rising. Taming those mains should help with that peak.

The peaks at 45Hz and 90Hz are probably overwhelming the fairly deep and wide dip from 20Hz up to 45Hz and again from 60Hz to 90Hz. 60Hz and up is often where people feel the "slam" that it sounds like you're missing. I guess you've tried turning the sub up but find it boomy?

Can you upload measurements for the L, C, R, and sub alone without any EQ? I suspect with some distance tweaks you can get a better response that you'll be able to EQ more successfully.

Lastly, "slam" is a function of SPL. Your measurements are, largely, at about 65dB. Is that the kind of level you listen at? Try turning it up and watching something that has good transients in it and see if that helps.

I have attached measurements of the L, C, R alone with no EQ. I don't have just the subs without EQ so I will have to take that measurement.

I took the measurements around 15dB below where I usually listen.

I assume you're crossing over at 80Hz, so the jump is both mains and sub ... hard to imagine the room doing that. Does Dirac flatten it out? Do you have a version of Dirac that allows you to determine the response curve and make it flat as a starting point?

Yes all these measurements are with an 80Hz crossover in place.

I do have a version of Dirac that allows me to EQ the full frequency response of all the channels in my system.

I have not yet taken a sweep from 10 to 20,000 Hz with Dirac enabled so I will need to take that measurement for you.

 

[Conrad.]

This, to me, doesn't look like there's a crossover in place.
Instead it looks like you have a big peak between 40 and 200Hz.

When you measured the mains, how did you turn the sub off? If you did it in the processor by, for example, setting the speakers to large, then this makes sense. If you just turned the sub off then it doesn't really.
Your mains have a response quoted as 35Hz, which is close to this response.

 

[AdamA]

This, to me, doesn't look like there's a crossover in place.
Instead it looks like you have a big peak between 40 and 200Hz.

When you measured the mains, how did you turn the sub off? If you did it in the processor by, for example, setting the speakers to large, then this makes sense. If you just turned the sub off then it doesn't really.
Your mains have a response quoted as 35Hz, which is close to this response.

View attachment 29979

Yes these measurements are with the speakers set to large in the AVR, that's is why I labelled the measurements with the "Large" designation.

I thought that is what you requested? L, C, R on their own? No EQ, no crossover?

I just need to get you the subs on their own, no crossover, no EQ?

 

[Conrad.]

Apologies, I just meant without EQ, but still with the crossover.
L, C, R, subs individually with crossover and no EQ is what I would start with. Then we can see what distances you need to put on your subs to get smooth integration between the two subs, then EQ the sub to give the flattest response.
Then integrate with the mains.

 

[AdamA]

Apologies, I just meant without EQ, but still with the crossover.
L, C, R, subs individually with crossover and no EQ is what I would start with. Then we can see what distances you need to put on your subs to get smooth integration between the two subs, then EQ the sub to give the flattest response.
Then integrate with the mains.

In the .mdat above there are six measurements, the ones labelled with "only" are just the L, C, R with an 80Hz crossover in place.

When I run Dirac it sets the distances & levels in a separate memory on my AVR.

If I set the distances now with Dirac disabled they will not be applied when Dirac is enabled as the another memory is used.

 

[Marc Lombardi]

Here's the Frequency plot for those who don't have REW. Very interesting. Really not bad. Center speaker location excites different resonances. Dirac would flatten that full range pretty nicely. Now the question is how does the sub affect 100-200Hz when it's crossed over at 80Hz?

 

[Conrad.]

In the .mdat above there are six measurements, the ones labelled with "only" are just the L, C, R with an 80Hz crossover in place.

When I run Dirac it sets the distances & levels in a separate memory on my AVR.

If I set the distances now with Dirac disabled they will not be applied when Dirac is enabled as the another memory is used.

Sure, but you're running a MiniDSP right? So you can affect the distances there to get, firstly, the best integration between the subs and then, secondly the best integration between the combined subs and the mains.

 

[AdamA]

Now the question is how does the sub affect 100-200Hz when it's crossed over at 80Hz?

Does the "+ sub" measurements in the .mdat file not answer that question?

Sure, but you're running a MiniDSP right? So you can affect the distances there to get, firstly, the best integration between the subs and then, secondly the best integration between the combined subs and the mains.

Correct & I also run M.S.O but all the measurements I have posted so far are without any EQ whatsoever.

Here is the response of the subs only at my four seating locations with M.S.O active.

 

[DanDan]

Others are dealing with the sub integration........ Down a few dB might be a helpful start. Dirac Live have add on Sub management now https://www.dirac.com/news/dirac-live-bass-management-ces2019 On a quick glance, I see a very very even RT60. But very low at around 100mS. Almost anechoic, which is fine by me, I like headphones too... But I see energy in the ETC's above -20mS during the first 20mS. That goes against the vast majority of guidelines. What is causing it?

 

[DavidK442]

The seat to seat subwoofer response is quite excellent. Would be good to see the center channel+sub response with everything active as you would normally listen to it. Are you on a concrete slab? A lack of tactile rumble can really affect the perception of sound. It is difficult to tell what is happening at the front of the room. Do you have the ability to move the center channel back to see if the midbass clears up before eq?

 

[AdamA]

Others are dealing with the sub integration........ Down a few dB might be a helpful start. Dirac Live have add on Sub management now https://www.dirac.com/news/dirac-live-bass-management-ces2019 On a quick glance, I see a very very even RT60. But very low at around 100mS. Almost anechoic, which is fine by me, I like headphones too... But I see energy in the ETC's above -20mS during the first 20mS. That goes against the vast majority of guidelines. What is causing it?

The Dirac Live bass management module is not available to any home theatre AVR's yet & my model wont be receiving the capability so it means upgrading my AVR to be able to take advantage of the module.

All this RT60 & ETC's is brand new to me so you will have to bear with me.

I am guess that due to the amount of absorption in my room the RT60 readings are very low? I have been told that this is an issue as the room will sound dead? So my room is over damped?

I have no clue what ETC's are so I will need to do some more research on that one.

The seat to seat subwoofer response is quite excellent. Would be good to see the center channel+sub response with everything active as you would normally listen to it. Are you on a concrete slab? A lack of tactile rumble can really affect the perception of sound. It is difficult to tell what is happening at the front of the room. Do you have the ability to move the center channel back to see if the midbass clears up before eq?

I will add that to the list of measurements I need to take tomorrow.

So far I need to measure the following:

L, C, R, Subs - all individually, no EQ with crossover enabled

L, C, R with Subs - All EQ with crossover enabled

If I have missed any please let me know.

I am not on a concrete slab, this room is upstairs so the floor is wooden joists with floor boards.

I would not say its difficult to tell what happening at the front it just sounds detached from the surrounds/heights. They just sound different & don't seem to blend/integrate well with the rest of the system.

I do have the option of moving the centre channel back toward to wall. I will have to remove the bass trap but it is a possibility for testing.