Electromagnetic vs magnetic speakers

Asere

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Are electromagnetic speakers better then magnet speakers?
What are pros and cons of each?
 

DonH57

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I am not sure what you are asking.

Hand waving follows; look up Maxwell's equations. There are also numerous online tutorials with pictures and much better explanations but hopefully this will get you started.

When you pass current through a wire, a magnetic field is automatically generated at right angles to the current flow. That is the often-mentioned EM (electromagnetic) field. Conventional speakers use a coil of wire around a permanent magnet. Many of us made an electromagnet from a nail and coil of wire, or made a little electric motor. Wrap the wire around a magnet, and as the signal current goes back and forth (reverse polarity) it will create a magnetic force that works with and against the magnet. Send the current one way, and the magnetic fields attract; the other way, and they oppose, so as the signal varies you get "pushing" and "pulling" forces. Attach the wire (voice coil) to a cone of some material, and then when you apply signal current (e.g. from your amplifier) the magnetic force pushes against the permanent magnet and moves the cone. The cone in turn creates vibrations in the air -- sound.

Planer-dynamic speakers like Magnepans basically take the voice coil and turn it into long strips of wire going up and down a large lightweight moving panel (the cone gets flattened and spread out). The magnet becomes strips of magnets on a fixed panel behind (usually) the moving panel. Now, when you apply signal to the wires, again a magnetic field is created that pushes against the strips of magnets, and the whole panel moves back and forth. This may provide lower distortion, since the entire panel ("cone") area is driven, but also much less movement since the moving panel has to be close to the fixed panel for the signal current to generate enough magnetic field to push against the magnets and move the panel.

Electrostatic speakers (ESLs) like Martin Logans use a different scheme entirely. In their case, two voltage fields are generated; a DC (static, non-moving) field on a light, thin conductive diaphragm (panel). Panels on either side are driven (through a step-up transformer to create the high voltage required) by the audio signal. Now there are no magnets, but opposite charges (voltages) attract, and similar charges repel, so again there are forces that move the diaphragm back and forth. Electrical voltage fields instead of magnetic fields, but the same general idea. Again the light diaphragm is driven over its entire area, and covers essentially the entire audio band with a single driver, so can have lower distortion but less dynamic range than a conventional driver.

Planar speakers (Maggies or ESLs) radiate equally out the front and rear so the back wave can cause a more "spacious" sound but also lead to cancellations when the back wave combines with the front, causing ripples in the frequency response (comb filter effects). They do not radiate much to the sounds or top/bottom so have less problem with wall or ceiling/floor reflections. Conventional speakers radiate more-or-less in all directions so in general "fill the room" more but are also more sensitive to reflections from walls, ceiling, and floor that can cause frequency ripples in the sound. They do tend to play louder and provide more bass than planar speakers.

HTH - Don
 
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one4

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Are electromagnetic speakers better then magnet speakers?
What are pros and cons of each?
Having owned all three types, that Don most excellantly describes above, I prefer Magneplanars. It really comes down to personal preference, that and your listening environment. For example, my listening room has a wall of windows. I do not want to cover the windows because view. With cone speakers the sound reflection off the windows makes for a harsh listening environment. With ESLs and Magneplanars I don't need to be concerned with the reflections; they are minimal. The downside of planar speakers is that it takes lots and lots of power to drive them. I have 300 wpc x12 driving my HT/Planar setup.
 

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The OP may be referring to the old style electromagnetic speaker. If so, I have no information regarding the pros and cons of this style driver beyond the higher cost to manufacture and operate it. The driver uses a field coil instead of the permanent magnet. I don't know if this style driver is now being used by anyone. I have a circa 1942 PHILCO multiband radio (model 42-380) that uses one. The Diyaudio.com forum has more transducer experts that may have more helpful information.
 

Asere

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Thank you guys for explaining. I wasn't specific with my question but yes I was asking how much better sounding one is vs the other. I already like the fact that with esl the reflection is less. I have a huge window in my family room. Learning about esl is interesting.
I may sound dumb but when I first saw the Martin Logan's ESL I thought the design was neat but never put thought on why they looked liked that. Especially when you can't see the tweeters and midrange but now I know why.
This design has my attention.
 
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one4

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Thank you guys for explaining. I wasn't specific with my question but yes I was asking how much better sounding one is vs the other. I already like the fact that with esl the reflection is less. I have a huge window in my family room. Learning about esl is interesting.
I may sound dumb but when I first saw the Martin Logan's ESL I thought the design was neat but never put thought on why they looked liked that. Especially when you can't see the tweeters and midrange but now I know why.
This design has my attention.
I think ESLs and Planars sound much better than cone/dynamic speakers. Your Parasound will drive either. An ESL is likely to be slightly more efficient than a Planar, so it may seem to be less demanding on the amp, but at higher frequencies an ESL may present crazy low impedance to the amp, meaning it will be working harder.

Another con, for some, is that ESLs and Planars like to be out in the room; at least 3' or more from the front wall. ESLs are a little more forgiving than Planars in this respect, meaning you can get away with placing them closer than 3' sometimes.

A pro is Magneplanars are relatively inexpensive. Currently the Magnepan entry level model, the LRS, sells for $650/pair, delivered. The entry level Martin Logan ESL model, the Electromotion ESL, has a suggested retail of $2500 plus shipping. In my opinion, at frequencies above 60hz, the LRS blows the Electromotion ESL away; not even close. If your thinking entry level Martin Logan, consider the Magnepan 1.7i; they're just $2200/pair delivered. No, a flat, cloth-covered, room-divider-looking panel doesn't look as cool as a curved metal screen that you can see through, but if sound/price is a consideration I think you'll be hard pressed to find a Martin Logan model for less than $10,000 that will sound as good as the 1.7i. YMMV.
 
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DonH57

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Any dipole speaker suffers from (or is influenced by) the back wave. Moving it further from the wall behind drops the frequency at which fundamental interactions occur. ESLs, particularly hybrid ESLs like most Martin Logans, roll off the panel at higher frequency than many Magnepans (e.g. some Maggies play deeper) so from that standpoint may be less sensitive. I have never cared for the comb filtering effect that messes up the image so have always damped the wall behind; that allows placement closer to the wall and a more stable stereo image over frequency. You does lose some of the "spaciousness" in the sound; now it must come the recording and not your room.

Martin Logan and other ESLs with curved radiating surfaces "engage" the room more to provide a more "spacious" sound at the cost of imaging and greater sensitivity to the side walls (a pro or co depending upon how you like the sound). Flat panels tend to have a narrower "sweet spot" though some designs (e.g. Quad) use techniques to make the panels behave more like a conventional point source.

Many Magnepan models dip below 3 ohms due to the ribbon tweeter but the impedance remains primarily resistive and so is a fairly easy, if low, load. Some ESLs (Martin Logan among them) dip below 1 ohm at very high frequencies; they get away with it because the energy (and thus power required) and such high frequencies is low so most amplifiers tolerate the load.

Magnepans are pretty low sensitivity. ESLs are all over the map, with some comparable to or lower than Maggies, and some considerably more sensitive. By and large panels do not offer the sensitivity of conventional designs and thus require more power (typically 2x to 4x) the power to pay as loud. Fortunately most of us are using far less average power than we think, though also underestimate the power need for peaks.

Planar speakers generally require a subwoofer to provide sufficient low-frequency response and dynamic range. I am a subwoofer advocate for all the usual reasons so use them with any speaker. Better to offload the deep bass from the main speakers (and their amps) and place the subs where they best flatten the in-room response, which is rarely the same place you want the mains for best imaging and such.

I've loved various panels for decades, though recently (past couple of years) returned to conventional speakers, retiring my 1988 vintage MG-IIIa Magnepans and surround-sound Maggie setup.
 

Asere

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From what I am reading on the Magnepan LRS they are more for music but how are they with movies? I do have subs.
Currently I have SVS Prime towers and Center.
 
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one4

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From what I am reading on the Magnepan LRS they are more for music but how are they with movies? I do have subs.
Currently I have SVS Prime towers and Center.
I demoed a pair of LRS for three days, in my home, several weeks ago. During the day I listened to music; rocked them at 95db(c) average, four hours straight, one afternoon. At night we streamed movies. Even my wife commented on the clarity of the soundtracks. So, IMO, coupled with some good subs, they do movies very well.

You may, or may not, experience an issue with Maggies and your current Center; they certainly are not voice-matched. I believe there is a 30 or 60 day home trial period with LRS's, but I also understand that, since they are manufactured to order, there is a three to four month wait between purchase and delivery. What part of Texas are you in? I believe there are authorized Magnepan dealers in most larger cities. My local dealer in Austin let me do the home demo.
 

one4

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Any dipole speaker suffers from (or is influenced by) the back wave. Moving it further from the wall behind drops the frequency at which fundamental interactions occur.
A dipole's distinctive sound is "influenced by", yes. I regard this as a feature and not necessarily a hindrance. For example, my Magnepan MC1's, are mounted perpendicular to and on my rear wall; there is no wall behind their back waves. What this achieves are sound waves traveling, in both directions, horizontally across my rear wall. This presents my listening area with non-directional, but still left/right differentiated, surround sound; the holographic effect is amazing.

ESLs, particularly hybrid ESLs like most Martin Logans, roll off the panel at higher frequency than many Magnepans (e.g. some Maggies play deeper) so from that standpoint may be less sensitive.
All current floor standing Martin Logan ESLs, with the exception of their $30,000/pair CLX Art model, are hybrids. Even their flagship $100,000/pair Neolith crosses over the stat panels to the cone bass drivers at a jumper-clip adjustable 250-400 hz. The Martin Logan entry level has a 500 hz crossover between the stat panel and the woofer. No Magnepan is a hybrid. The Magnepan entry level LRS is spec'd to reproduce sound down to 50 hz. The CLX Art, referenced above, is spec'd down to 56 hz. All floor standing Maggies, even the LRS's, "play deeper".

I have never cared for the comb filtering effect that messes up the image so have always damped the wall behind; that allows placement closer to the wall and a more stable stereo image over frequency. You does lose some of the "spaciousness" in the sound; now it must come the recording and not your room.
A comb filtering effect has not been a concern in my listening environment. Perhaps it's because I place large artificial plants directly behind my front dipoles? I first did this for aesthetics; my 'Interior Designer' insisted that if speakers were going to be setting that far out into the room something HAD to be placed in the space behind them. Perhaps a side-benefit is the sound diffusion the plants provide?

Many Magnepan models dip below 3 ohms due to the ribbon tweeter but the impedance remains primarily resistive and so is a fairly easy, if low, load. Some ESLs (Martin Logan among them) dip below 1 ohm at very high frequencies; they get away with it because the energy (and thus power required) and such high frequencies is low so most amplifiers tolerate the load.
Personal anecdote: Last year I was in the market for a new amp. I had narrowed down my choices and decided to call the manufacturers with some technical questions. One manufacturer, in my mind a reputable one, when I told the rep. I would be driving Martin Logans responded that he would not recommend any of his amps, as ML's impedance was too low and would likely trigger their amp's protection circuitry. This put me off, so I said goodbye and called Martin Logan. The ML rep. said he knew of many ML owners using that manufacturer's amps and had never heard of such an issue. Still, I decided to buy another manufacturer's amp. Haven't had an issue yet.

Planar speakers generally require a subwoofer to provide sufficient low-frequency response and dynamic range. I am a subwoofer advocate for all the usual reasons so use them with any speaker. Better to offload the deep bass from the main speakers (and their amps) and place the subs where they best flatten the in-room response, which is rarely the same place you want the mains for best imaging and such.
Love me some bass. Just make sure the subs are tight and provide lightening-fast response. Otherwise, when paired with Planars they may sound 'muddy'. Or, just get a pair of Magnepan 30.7's, which are spec'd down to 25 hz.;)
 

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I have the MartinLogan Classic ESL 9 setup in my room... but I also just setup a pair of Eminent Technology LFT-8b's that I haven't had time to dial in just yet. I connected them, but that's about it. The ESL's are tuned near perfect for the room, so not a fair comparison. Hopefully I'll get a chance to do some comparisons at some point in time.
 

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One post, 4 replies???
 

AJ Soundfield

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Wow, original post gone...
 
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I remember many years back demo'ing a pair of Quad ESL 2812. They had an phenomenal ability of reproducing acoustic instruments. The shop had speakers ranging from top tier Focals to mega-buck Wilsons. None of them could touch the Quads in the acoustic instrument realm.
 

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Well I settled for Magnepan LRS with Magna Risers Airborne Stands. I will be using them in a separate room for only Vinyl listening. Arrives Friday and can't wait.
 

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Awesome! Let us know your thoughts : )
 

one4

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Excellent. With the lead time from Magnepan on new LRS's, you must have found a deal on used. Happy tweaking!
 

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Excellent. With the lead time from Magnepan on new LRS's, you must have found a deal on used. Happy tweaking!
For sure Magnepan said it would be 12-14 weeks. I bought used only 5 months old with the Magna Airborne stands shipped and insured total of $850.
 

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Enjoy the new sounds!
 
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