Buying Advice: Marantz SR7012 vs. NAD T758 V3

[Jazzy Jeff]

Hello - First time posting, anything - anywhere!
I am about to update my AVR, as I have bought a new 4K TV (LG C8 OLED 65"). I am currently running a Rotel RSX-1056 into a 5.1 Surround system with B&W speakers - CM9 S2 Main speakers, DS6 Surround Speakers, CMC Center Speaker and ASW600 Subwoofer. I run a xfinity X1 Box into the AVR, a Sonos Connect, a Rotel CD Player, as well as a Blu Ray player that I will be updating (that will be my next decision!)
I read Todd's and Wayne's excellent reviews of the above mentioned AVR's (BTW, you are the only website I have seen that reviewed both of these), and with the current price drop of the Marantz to $1199 on Crutchfield, these two AVR's are now head to head competitors.
I am a music first person, and that is the most important thing I want to continue with my new AVR, that Music will sound as good as it can with my current speakers and a new AVR. I don't really plan to add more speakers to my system, although maybe someday down the road I would think about adding 2 Atmos height speakers. I will be using the system to listen to Music (both Stereo and Multi Channel) watch regular TV (Netflix, Amazon, Cable etc), and for some movies (streamed or on disc).
Reading all the reviews I have about these two AVR's makes it very tough to choose between them. I previously owned an NAD Stereo Receiver (it is still in storage in my basement), so I understand the simplicity and power of an NAD component. On the other hand, the Marantz also does an excellent job with Music and Movies, and it feels like the Marantz has so many nice bells and whistles, but do I really need them? And then of course is the whole Audyssey vs. Dirac conversation. I am not a "tweeker" per se, so I will work on getting the best possible settings, and then probably live with it that way for a long time.
Bottom line, I want the best AVR that will make Music sound spectacular and is great for watching TV and Movies too in a 5.1 system, and has the ability to stream my Music Library from phone, Ipad or PC, and will not become obsolete before you know it. Any advice, insight and opinions you can give me are greatly appreciated.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Hey @Jazzy Jeff!

Congrats on the C8 OLED buy. Killer TV! Definitely ranks up there as one of the best TVs ever made.

Wow. A head-2-head pick between these two AVRs. First off, based on Wayne's experience, it's evident the NAD has a lot to offer. Assuming both will deliver roughly the same power to your speakers (and Wayne seemed very upbeat about he horses under the NAD's hood), you're decisions come down to a few simple differences:

Bluesound vs HEOS for streaming.
Audyssey/Audyssey App vs Dirac 2.0.
The inclusion of Auro-3D (and, consequently Auro -2D) on the Marantz

I'm sure there are others, but those are just top of my head.

I think you're going to find fans that can argue for both camps. Around here, there's a ton of love for Dirac, especially for music listening. And, of course, Bluesound gives you access to TIDAL Masters (@Matthew J Poes, correct me if I'm wrong on that one) while Marantz only opens the door to TIDAL Hi-Fi. I'm not as familiar with NAD's other streaming offerings (such as Spotify Connect, Pandora, Amazon Music... all of which are on the Marantz/HEOS).

Personally, I think you're going to find nearly equal experiences with which ever one you choose. Perhaps careful calibration with Dirac might squeeze more out of your 2-channel listening experience.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

Thanks Todd, lots to think about, I keep flipping back and forth, but good to be doing so between two great choices.
It would be great to get Wayne's thoughts on this too!

 

[Todd Anderson]

Yes... we'll get at @AudiocRaver to chime in

How technically inclined are you? One nice thing about Marantz is the exceedingly easy set up procedure. Upon initial startup, the 7012 guides you with on screen set up.

Of course, any issues you have, you can always pop in and ask questions here!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Hey @Jazzy Jeff!

Congrats on the C8 OLED buy. Killer TV! Definitely ranks up there as one of the best TVs ever made.

Wow. A head-2-head pick between these two AVRs. First off, based on Wayne's experience, it's evident the NAD has a lot to offer. Assuming both will deliver roughly the same power to your speakers (and Wayne seemed very upbeat about he horses under the NAD's hood), you're decisions come down to a few simple differences:

Bluesound vs HEOS for streaming.
Audyssey/Audyssey App vs Dirac 2.0.
The inclusion of Auro-3D (and, consequently Auro -2D) on the Marantz

I'm sure there are others, but those are just top of my head.

I think you're going to find fans that can argue for both camps. Around here, there's a ton of love for Dirac, especially for music listening. And, of course, Bluesound gives you access to TIDAL Masters (@Matthew J Poes, correct me if I'm wrong on that one) while Marantz only opens the door to TIDAL Hi-Fi. I'm not as familiar with NAD's other streaming offerings (such as Spotify Connect, Pandora, Amazon Music... all of which are on the Marantz/HEOS).

Personally, I think you're going to find nearly equal experiences with which ever one you choose. Perhaps careful calibration with Dirac might squeeze more out of your 2-channel listening experience.

Yeah that's correct Todd. BlueSound is unique in being able to take advantage of the higher fidelity Tidal. Under the vast majority of circumstances I'm sure you won't hear a big difference, but there are other advantages. In my opinion, having now used a number of different apps, I think that BlueSound is the best. In fact, I have now used Yamaha Multicast, Sonos, and HEOS, and the best interface by far is BlueSound. It's the most intuitive and best looking. That isn't to say the others are bad, they are all great, they work, they are snappy, and you get to where you need to get. I just like Bluesound best.

If it were me, I would go with the NAD just for that and Dirac. If music isn't as important to you and you aren't that technically inclined, you should go with the Marantz. A lot of people have had trouble with setting up the NAD's. So much show that a number of shops hired me or worked with me to help them get the NAD's setup in the Chicago area. I don't blame them either, I had been using DIRAC for years and consider myself very knowledgable of these procedures and I had a heck of a time getting the NAD setup correctly. The newer version of DIRAC does seem to be better, but I've not used it with an NAD, and I'm not convinced it is the equal of the Marantz with Audyssey.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

So, to answer your question Todd, I am somewhat technically inclined, but far from an expert. I have had some concerns about the NAD setup, and not only does Matthew mention the difficulty of set up, Mark Fleishman in Sound and Vision magazine mentioned his difficulty in setting up the NAD - he had to call NAD to walk him through it, and all you guys are experts! In my research about the NAD, it seems like early customer reviews talked about set up difficulty, but with new downloads/updates from NAD, this seems to have lessened. I have also read through the setup instructions on the NAD as well as watched the videos on Dirac Setup, and it doesn't seem that difficult. I am very sensitive to sound, and understand well the depth and width of a soundstage, and the accuracy of the sound of instruments and voices.
I have a couple of questions about the Marantz -
I read in one review that once you set up Marantz with Audyssey, the AVR does not hold the settings, and you have to upload them each time you want you want to listen with the Audyssey settings?
Also, NAD supports "lossless" streaming via BlueSound, does Marantz also have "lossless" streaming?
Thanks.

 

[Todd Anderson]

So, to answer your question Todd, I am somewhat technically inclined, but far from an expert. I have had some concerns about the NAD setup, and not only does Matthew mention the difficulty of set up, Mark Fleishman in Sound and Vision magazine mentioned his difficulty in setting up the NAD - he had to call NAD to walk him through it, and all you guys are experts! In my research about the NAD, it seems like early customer reviews talked about set up difficulty, but with new downloads/updates from NAD, this seems to have lessened. I have also read through the setup instructions on the NAD as well as watched the videos on Dirac Setup, and it doesn't seem that difficult. I am very sensitive to sound, and understand well the depth and width of a soundstage, and the accuracy of the sound of instruments and voices.
I have a couple of questions about the Marantz -
I read in one review that once you set up Marantz with Audyssey, the AVR does not hold the settings, and you have to upload them each time you want you want to listen with the Audyssey settings?
Also, NAD supports "lossless" streaming via BlueSound, does Marantz also have "lossless" streaming?
Thanks.

If that's the case, I wouldn't let difficulty scare you away. It sounds to me like you'll be fine with setup. Besides, you have folks like Wayne and Matt, here, who can help (let alone the folks at NAD).

As for your question about Marantz... once you run Audyssey using the app, you upload it to the AVR and you are good to go. You can have multiple settings stored in the audyssey app... and if you want to switch, you simply upload the set you want. But otherwise, your preferred settings are stored in the receiver.

One nice thing about the Marantz, you can enter the menu system and setup a 2-channel or stereo listening mode that either has a specific crossover setting or sets the mains to large and removes a sub all together.

 

[JStewart]

I have also read through the setup instructions on the NAD as well as watched the videos on Dirac Setup, and it doesn't seem that difficult.

It's really not. IIRC most of the issues were with regard to connecting a laptop to the NAD i.e. wireless issues. Another group if issues came from a problem with the original output card for the height channels that had about 6db lower output than the others but this has been resolved by NAD with the new cards they've been shipping for several months now.
There is slightly more work with Dirac vs. other room connection technologies as a result of using a laptop to generate the filters, but as you probably saw in the video its pretty straight forward. Select the mic your using, set levels, take measurements, generate filters, load filters to a filter "slot" on NAD, and save the Dirac project on the laptop drive.

Dirac does not natively handle dual subs as Audyssey does which can add another level of complexity to use an outboard dsp for the subs, but aside from that you will be hard pressed to find anyone who has compared Dirac to another technology that does not prefer Dirac.

One nice thing about the Marantz, you can enter the menu system and setup a 2-channel or stereo listening mode that either has a specific crossover setting or sets the mains to large and removes a sub all together.

The NAD T758v3 will also allow this. Up to 6 different configurations with or without Dirac active.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Yeah setup difficulty was mostly around getting the setup laptop to see the computer properly. I had some trouble seeing the NaD in the network and even once I got that working, I had some issues with how it was taking measurements. Because DIRAC doesn’t currently offer bass management, the overall process is a little more involved, but basically, it’s doable for most folks who have setup a home theater before.

As for streaming, both are capable of lossless streaming and both are capable of playing back HD lossless files in 24 bit and up to 192khz or beyond. However, the HEOS system doesn’t access the Tidal Master quality tracks. HiFi and Master are both lossless, but Master uses MQA and is said to be capable of higher resolution. This has been hotly debated as of late so I leave the importance of this feature up to you. I can say that I like TIDAL and have found no problems with Master, though I can’t say I have heard any benefit either. I’ve tried to do some comparisons but at the moment am feeling agnostic about all this.

In general I find the Bluesound app and OS to be better than HEOS. It isn’t huge differences, I just think the graphics are a bit more modern and better looking. I find it easier to navigate. In fact I currently have a bit of everything in my house and can say that I like Bluesound best of all the different systems. For me, this kind of platform has made consuming music so much easier and more enjoyable.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Yeah setup difficulty was mostly around getting the setup laptop to see the computer properly. I had some trouble seeing the NaD in the network and even once I got that working, I had some issues with how it was taking measurements. Because DIRAC doesn’t currently offer bass management, the overall process is a little more involved, but basically, it’s doable for most folks who have setup a home theater before.

As for streaming, both are capable of lossless streaming and both are capable of playing back HD lossless files in 24 bit and up to 192khz or beyond. However, the HEOS system doesn’t access the Tidal Master quality tracks. HiFi and Master are both lossless, but Master uses MQA and is said to be capable of higher resolution. This has been hotly debated as of late so I leave the importance of this feature up to you. I can say that I like TIDAL and have found no problems with Master, though I can’t say I have heard any benefit either. I’ve tried to do some comparisons but at the moment am feeling agnostic about all this.

In general I find the Bluesound app and OS to be better than HEOS. It isn’t huge differences, I just think the graphics are a bit more modern and better looking. I find it easier to navigate. In fact I currently have a bit of everything in my house and can say that I like Bluesound best of all the different systems. For me, this kind of platform has made consuming music so much easier and more enjoyable.

Interesting you find HEOS to lack a little edge in graphics/presentation. I think it's fantastic. I use it all of the time to listen to music, no complaints. I haven't used Bluesound, but HEOS has never felt lacking to me. Seems inline with what I'd expect. I guess I need to get a Bluesound demo!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Interesting you find HEOS to lack a little edge in graphics/presentation. I think it's fantastic. I use it all of the time to listen to music, no complaints. I haven't used Bluesound, but HEOS has never felt lacking to me. Seems inline with what I'd expect. I guess I need to get a Bluesound demo!

Maybe take it with a grain of salt. I tested HEOS a while back and a lot of what I love about Bluesound was how it handled putting my music front and center. It was much easier for me to find the music I wanted to listen to. They made it easier to find Master quality tracks, to go to your own playlists, etc. I really loved the TIDAL interface. I know some other people complain about the system for its lack of gapless playback and things like that. I think I just latched onto some specific details of the interface I happened to really like. Anyone missing those got a bad score in my mind.

I’ll give Denon this, at least HEOS doesn’t show folders as icons.

Todd, this really makes me thing we should do a writeup of our experience with these different services. They evolve constantly and most of the articles that compared them in the past did so based on early versions.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Maybe you used an older version HEOS. The version I've been using does everything the TIDAL app does with a nice interface that integrates well with the account.

Write up would be good. We just need all of them in one place! Might be possible... but tough!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Maybe you used an older version HEOS. The version I've been using does everything the TIDAL app does with a nice interface that integrates well with the account.

Write up would be good. We just need all of them in one place! Might be possible... but tough!

It looks like you can run most of not all of the apps in demo mode. This is probably better as a side bar conversation, but that might work just to review he apps.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

Thanks for all your advice guys. I finally pulled the trigger on the SR7012, and it will be in my possession in a couple of days. In the end, I couldn't pass up the extensive feature set it has to offer, as well as easy setup, for what seems like small performance gains I might experience with the NAD. I will report back once I have had a chance to play with my new toy. Happy Holidays!

 

[JStewart]

Congrats and enjoy!

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Thanks for all your advice guys. I finally pulled the trigger on the SR7012, and it will be in my possession in a couple of days. In the end, I couldn't pass up the extensive feature set it has to offer, as well as easy setup, for what seems like small performance gains I might experience with the NAD. I will report back once I have had a chance to play with my new toy. Happy Holidays!

Great! I hope you enjoy it. Let us know how you like it.

So I know your reasoning, what features ultimately swayed you to the Marantz?

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

There really were many features that swayed me to the Marantz that the NAD does not have - the DTS:X, the Auro 3D and 2D, a phono input, built in wifi and bluetooth as opposed to a add on dongle, video upscaling, Airplay2, ease of setup, a 3 year warranty vs. a 2 year warranty. I found the user manual of the Marantz to be much more specific and thorough (over 300 pages Marantz vs. 30 pages NAD). Also, had I chosen the NAD, all of the inputs would be maxed out by the time I first set it up, whereas the Marantz has more input and outputs than I will ever need, but good to have should I want to expand. Finally, Crutchfield offers a 60 day return, so if I am not happy with the Marantz, I can always head to the NAD, but I don't think that will happen. Once I set it up and play with it, I will definitely circle back with an update and let you know if I am happy with my choice.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

There really were many features that swayed me to the Marantz that the NAD does not have - the DTS:X, the Auro 3D and 2D, a phono input, built in wifi and bluetooth as opposed to a add on dongle, video upscaling, Airplay2, ease of setup, a 3 year warranty vs. a 2 year warranty. I found the user manual of the Marantz to be much more specific and thorough (over 300 pages Marantz vs. 30 pages NAD). Also, had I chosen the NAD, all of the inputs would be maxed out by the time I first set it up, whereas the Marantz has more input and outputs than I will ever need, but good to have should I want to expand. Finally, Crutchfield offers a 60 day return, so if I am not happy with the Marantz, I can always head to the NAD, but I don't think that will happen. Once I set it up and play with it, I will definitely circle back with an update and let you know if I am happy with my choice.

Ok that’s good to know. Very helpful.

I should have a talk with my contact at NAD. Some of the features that swayed you are on the NAD but it’s nearly impossible for you to have known that. They need to fix their website.

The NAD has Bluetooth through the BluOS module. I agree that the dongle is weird but it actually works well. It also has Airplay 2. That was recently added through BluOS as well.

It doesn’t have a phone input. They sell an add on module for that, feeling they would rather not include a junky one for free and instead offer a good one for relatively cheap. I think it’s a fair point.

DTS:X is coming but I don’t know the timeline. I believe it’s a licensing issue at this point. I suspect Auro won’t be coming. No mention and it’s lack of popularity make it a low priority I’m sure. I should ask and see what the timeline and thoughts are.

In any case, I’m sure the Marantz will make you happy. The reality is that the NAD is a more premium product and is priced as such. The 757 is not actually competitive with the Marantz. The 777 is and that unit is around $2000. I think that’s long been a problem for NAD, they cost more than the competition and the cross-shopped models aren’t really competitive.

My own opinion is that I think that NAD needs to start using the Hypex amplifier modules in their receivers. If they kept everything else the same and made that one switch then the main benefit they would suddenly have is superior amplification. The amplifiers would be so much more efficient that the receiver would be able to put out near full power with all channels driven, produce less heat, and those Hypex modules are as clean as can be. Right now I tend to tell people I like the NAD because of BluOS and DIRAC and if that isn’t for you, other brands may offer more value. If the amps changed, I would consider the receivers simply better in nearly every way.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

Hi Matthew,
Just to be clearer on a couple of points -
I knew that Airplay2 was coming in an update on the NAD, but could find no info whether or not this had happened yet, or when it was going to. Same for the DTS:X.
I think your last point about the 777 being more competitive with the SR7012 than the 758 was also important in my decision making - that the price on the SR7012 had dropped by $1K, so I was getting an AVR that had the performance and features of a $2K+ AVR, vs. getting the performance and features of a $1200 AVR. For most people this would be an easy decision, and my previous experience owning an NAD in the past, and knowing how strongly it performed, is what made it a difficult choice.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Hi Matthew,
Just to be clearer on a couple of points -
I knew that Airplay2 was coming in an update on the NAD, but could find no info whether or not this had happened yet, or when it was going to. Same for the DTS:X.
I think your last point about the 777 being more competitive with the SR7012 than the 758 was also important in my decision making - that the price on the SR7012 had dropped by $1K, so I was getting an AVR that had the performance and features of a $2K+ AVR, vs. getting the performance and features of a $1200 AVR. For most people this would be an easy decision, and my previous experience owning an NAD in the past, and knowing how strongly it performed, is what made it a difficult choice.

Yeah I really like NAD products. Really strong performance. In the old days they lacked features that most people wanted and it could be a hard choice. You might be looking at it as, Are these features I’ll stop using in a month once the shine rubs off or do I need them. But the V3 receivers now have most if not all the hottest features that people need with what I think is the best software in the business. The amplifiers have always been top notch and technical performance is strong. Marantz is great, no doubt, but I’ve always held NAD in a higher regard.

I actually had a client once who had NAD gear for years. When he decided he wanted a surround system he went to a local shop and bought a speaker setup I suggested from PSB, but the salesman sold him on a top of the line Yamaha receiver over the similarly priced NAD I suggested. We set it up, I didn’t really care which receiver he bought. I got it dialed in and everything measured fine. He was never happy with the sound and kept blaming me for choosing bad speakers. I played with the settings but nothing made him happy. Then the Yamaha started acting up too. He took it back and traded it toward the NAD. I set that up and honestly expected him to still hate the system. I figured maybe it was a bad speaker choice for him (I believe it was the PSB stratus Gold). He ended up loving it and claiming the NAD made all the difference. Go figure.

I’ll admit to latching onto their products I similar romantic ways. Who knows if they really sounded better or not, but they brought so much joy. I had an NAD CD player for a while that I loved. I had listed after an NAD integrated amplifier throughout high school. I currently lust for the M17v2 and matching amplifiers. But I’ll admit, it I was buying today, it would be a hard choice due to cost alone.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

Let's hope I don't have the same experience as your client when I hook up the Marantz to my system. My B&W speakers sound amazing with the Rotel AVR that the Marantz is replacing!

 

[JBrax]

I’ve got a Marantz sr7010 and it’s been flawless. I think you’ll be happy with your purchase.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

Hi all, I've been living with my new SR7012 AVR for a couple of weeks now and am pretty happy. I have been mostly using it to listen to Stereo Music. At first out of the box, I thought the sound was fair, a bit muddy with no real clear soundstage. I started to worry about my choice. Then I ran Audyssey, and that changed everything. The Soundstage became very focused, with precise placement of instruments and voices across the the stage, and beyond the speakers. Lots of subtly came out in the sound of the instruments. When I toggle MultiEq XT32 on vs. off, it amazes me how much of a difference it makes. I did change a couple of Odyssey settings - setting front speakers to small and moving the crossover point on the the front speakers to 80Hz. I also toggled on the Dynamic EQ and set the offset at 10DB.
That being said, I do still sometimes feel it is lacking a small bit of warmth and midrange punch (especially with Drums). I have not moved on to the MultiEq Editor App yet, and was hoping to get some advice here on how best to utilize it to further tailor the sound. The App has received pretty poor reviews at the App store. I also am planning to try Bi-Amping the front speakers to see what effect that has on the sound.
Other likes - Bluetooth and Airplay work great, Auro 2D is pretty interesting - filling out the sound to 5 speakers while still being able to keep a decent soundstage, really like the iPhone remote, DTS Neural X for movies seems to work best for my current setup. Setup of the AVR and running Audyssey were a breeze.
Dislikes - Don't like the flip down panel on the AVR as I like to see what is going on (Modes etc.) all of the time, I miss my Rotel's toggle button where you could toggle between 5.1, 2.1 and 2.0 with push of a button. I wish the AVR itself supported Sonos. I have my Sonos Connect player hooked up to the AVR via Coax, and my living room, which is where my Surround setup is, sits next to my kitchen, where i have another Sonos speaker. When I group the two rooms together via the Sonos app, there is a slight time delay between the rooms, which makes the music sound like it has an echo - when my Rotel was hooked up to the Sonos Connect, there was no delay between the rooms, so not sure what is going on there.
Overall, as I said earlier, I am pretty happy with my purchase, and with some more playing, break in time and tweaking, I think I will get to very happy.

 

[AudiocRaver]

A quick adder to a busy thread. People who have used Audyssey for years, then try Dirac Live, agree (ALL of them that I have heard from, and my own findings are the same) that Dirac's performance is so much better, they pick Dirac Live and never look back. I know there are other considerations, but if image sharpness and clarity matter to you, you owe it to yourself to give Dirac a try.

 

[Jazzy Jeff]

Hi Wayne, thanks for chiming in - I had read your excellent review of the NAD and asked for you to weigh in on my decision back on Dec. 11, before I made my purchase. Your comment brings up two questions for me -
1) How is it that I bought a Rotel 5.1 receiver almost 14 years ago, it had no room correction of any kind, and it made my speakers sing perfectly - so why is it today we are not talking about which is the best receiver by itself, but which receiver has the best correction program to make it sound great?
2) Now that you are in the conversation, do you think there is enough of a difference between the two receivers in terms and of stereo listening (which is most important to me) that I should return the Marantz and buy the NAD?
And anyone who wants to weigh in on using the MultiEq Editor App best practises would be greatly appreciated!