AVR for 2 ch and HT?

[jtwrace]

Is anyone using an AVR for their 2 ch and HT system? There seems to be a pretty big hole in the fully balanced, excellent measuring full functioning AVR. Ideally I use my current mains add a center and some surround channels but run my dac through the AVR. Doesn't seem to exist and the thought of another stand alone system seems wasteful. I'm a 2 ch guy at heart but having a HT is appealing at times especially if I could do it "right".

What are you all using for this use case?

The Acurus Muse seems like a perfect candidate but getting any measurements seems to be impossible.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Monolith HTP-1 is about the best processor on the market at a reasonable price that is not plagued with issues. But it's just an AV processor, no power. If I were to dive back into the AVR market, I would probably go the Anthem route.

The HTP-1 has the best rating of any processor over at ASR. I run it for HT, then I run a miniDSP SHD for two-channel. However, I would not be able to identify any differences between my two setups in an AB comparison, blind or not, yet I know the SHD is superior in measurements, and at least I know it does less to hinder me hearing an extremely clean and neutral signal.

 

[jtwrace]

HTP-1 has good SINAD but that's about it and it's $4k. Not even recommended there. Personally, based on measurements the Denon are prob the best performing but the lack of fully balanced kinda stinks.

Conclusions

The HTP-1 seems to want to raise the bar on DAC performance over its competitors and it succeeds a bit there. But then it truncates every 24 bit sample to 16 bits, removing the value of such performance. Jitter performance is also not good. And of course, if you can't get video through the thing as was my experience with my PC, then the rest does not happen.

I am hoping that the muting problem beyond 15 bits can be fixed with a firmware update. If so, and the video compatibility is not a broader issue, I would give HTP-1 a passing grade. As it is now, it is not ready for production.

EDIT: an obscure setting fixes the linearity/muting issue. This setting should be the default, not the other way around. I am still bothered by lack luster output level and distortion for a $4,000 product. So not changing my recommendation. Buy this product because you want its features, not because you think the $4,000 is bringing you superlative objective audio performance. There are $150 stereo DACs that easily outperform it on that front.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I think when Amir had it there were some issues, but I believe most of those have been addressed.

Outside of a few times mine powered up on it's on (which is now fixed), I haven't had any issues with anything... it's just worked beautifully. Good SINAD covers a lot. None of the jitter or distortion is audible and if you read enough of Amir's comments, I can't say that he is necessarily consistent. His measurements are all I look at... I skip his personal comments, as he does no subjective listening or comparisons, and he exaggerates the minor issues from time to time, giving very little benefit of the doubt to some manufacturers. Probably best to read the other reviews on the equipment he measures to make a wise decision. Here's more on the HTP-1:
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/monoprice-monolith-htp-1-surround-sound-processor-review

 

[jtwrace]

I look forward to the day that AV NIRVANA purchases the $30k APx555.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I look forward to the day that AV NIRVANA purchases the $30k APx555.

Yeah... me too. @Todd Anderson could do it now if he only would. Might even find a used one for 20k or so. I guarantee you he could make it much more interesting that what Amir does.

 

[Todd Anderson]

Yeah... me too. @Todd Anderson could do it now if he only would. Might even find a used one for 20k or so. I guarantee you he could make it much more interesting that what Amir does.

That’s a crap load cash! He measures the processing side, correct? Not amp output?

I used a Denon X8500H for dual home theater and 2-channel use. Mind you, the vast majority of my time is devoted to movies, but I had zero issue with the 2-channel mode. Mine was set to 2.0 sound. Sounded great to me

 

[Grayson Dere]

This is an interesting topic. Do AVRs usually underperform in the 2-channel realm mainly because there's too much going on circuitry-wise with all its functions? Or are the manufacturers just being smart by cutting costs for the AVR demographic and choose to save the best measuring equipment for the strictly 2-channel products (equals more $$$)?

 

[Sonnie Parker]

This is an interesting topic. Do AVRs usually underperform in the 2-channel realm mainly because there's too much going on circuitry-wise with all its functions? Or are the manufacturers just being smart by cutting costs for the AVR demographic and choose to save the best measuring equipment for the strictly 2-channel products (equals more $$$)?

I think the main issue that most people have in an AVR is lack of power when driving more difficult speakers to reference levels. Then you have some of the AVR's that really take a dive on power when "all channels" are driven. If your speakers are in that higher sensitivity range, it's likely not an issue. Take someone like me who has 13 MartinLogan speakers to power, and most of them being slightly more difficult to drive at higher volumes without the proper amps, most AVR's will struggle driving them at reference loud volumes. I believe it was a Denon 350x that ran out of steam in a test we did one time. Overall, I think most AVR's will suffice for most speakers, but there are some speakers that will appreciate more power.

Then you also have an issue of finding an AVR with enough channels to handle Atmos, Auro 3D, etc... there are not a host of 11-13 powered channel AVR's on the market, so if you are the serious music listener, why not grab a higher powered two-channel amp for your mains to go along with the AVR.

 

[Michael Boeker]

I don't use an AVR for a two channel system and I don't even always use a processor for a two channel system. However, I do (or will since my theater isn't complete) use the same system for both. I have a StormAudio ISP with an AVB 32-channel digital output board and an RME M-32 Pro DA 32 channel converter.

Movies in Home Theater: Source > StormAudio ISP > RME M-32 Pro DA > Amps
Two Channel in Home Theater: HTPC > Digiface AVB > RME M-32 Pro DA > Amps or HTPC > StormAudio ISP > RME-32 Pro DA
Two Channel in Great Room: HTPC > Digiface AVB > RME AVB Tool or HTPC > StormAudio ISP > RME AVB Tool

 

[JStewart]

The Acurus Muse seems like a perfect candidate but getting any measurements seems to be impossible.

I don’t understand how companies can market a product where specs matter to the purchaser and have zero specs published. It’s not like they can’t find someone to test it for them.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Is anyone using an AVR for their 2 ch and HT system?

Yes, this guy got one from Costco and blew away audiophile believers who had mega$$ bling systems
http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/recommendations.pdf

HTP-1 has good SINAD

Jason, you've been drinking the ASR koolaid, forgetting that Amir is also a believer (Establishing Differences By The +/- 10% Volume ... - AVS Forum) .Very simple, have any believer cite a DBT correlating SINAD to JND perception, much less preference. Earl would get a good laugh like myself.

As I mentioned to you, the biggest issue with using an AVR alone as a pre, is that with any of the better MCH upmix immersive modes, the LR will not be "pure" stereo.
The idea that a mid>upper tier AVR with pre-outs is in any way audibly inferior to $$bling is unsupported by evidence.
There is however, a very valid reason for spending $$ on audio equipment one will "experience".
https://www.pnas.org/content/105/3/1050
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=19405
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html
etc, etc.
In that sense, choose carefully. YMMV

cheers

 

[jtwrace]

Jason, you've been drinking the ASR koolaid,

You quoted only part of what I said which takes it totally out of context.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Yes, this guy got one from Costco and blew away audiophile believers who had mega$$ bling systems
http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/recommendations.pdf

Is this the correct link? It looks like an advertisement for the world's best designed speakers.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

You quoted only part of what I said which takes it totally out of context.

HTP-1 has good SINAD but that's about it and it's $4k. Not even recommended there. Personally, based on measurements the Denon are prob the best performing but the lack of fully balanced kinda stinks.

Ok full quote. What is the audio concern there? Basing any decision on ASR/SINAD crowd is a bad idea. Audibly speaking.

 

[jtwrace]

Ok full quote. What is the audio concern there? Basing any decision on ASR/SINAD crowd is a bad idea. Audibly speaking.

I think it's obvious, no? Basing HTP-1 on SINAD only doesn't mean much and it's $4k.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Is this the correct link? It looks like an advertisement for the world's best designed speakers.

There are several mentions of EGs use of a "$200 Costco Pioneer AVR" in his AV system being auditioned, speakers included.
Dr G knows a wee bit about SINAD and such. As does this gent https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/what-matters-about-sinad-measurements.7375/
Beware the ASR/SINAD etc koolaid brigade. They knoweth not of what they speak. Do pay attention when RCAguy, Toole and JJ et al speak, especially JJ.

cheers

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I think it's obvious, no? Basing HTP-1 on SINAD only doesn't mean much and it's $4k.

No, basing anything on SINAD other than absolute worse case scenario is misguided. That and:

Is anyone using an AVR for their 2 ch and HT system? There seems to be a pretty big hole in the fully balanced, excellent measuring full functioning AVR. Ideally I use my current mains add a center and some surround channels but run my dac through the AVR. Doesn't seem to exist and the thought of another stand alone system seems wasteful. I'm a 2 ch guy at heart but having a HT is appealing at times especially if I could do it "right".

What "excellent" measurements relating to audibility? A $200 Costco AVR is audibly innocuous. Just wont have balanced and possibly other features. Again, beware relying on ASR for sensible info there.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

I think it's obvious, no? Basing HTP-1 on SINAD only doesn't mean much and it's $4k.

I agree... SINAD only is certainly not reason to buy, which is why I linked a subjective review. I like to look at everything I can about a product before I buy... and I do consider SINAD, whether I should or should not. Why would objective measurements not be something to consider as much as subjective comments?

Probably the largest factor in my decision was the best bang for the buck in the HTP-1... you get a ton of features (everything I could possibly need - YMMV), and it actually works, which is saying a lot for being in a market of similar products that are plagued with issues. I had two different units that retail for $9600 that were plagued with issues before I had the HTP-1. The NAD M17 processor I had was very nice, but it does not have even remotely close to the features of the HTP-1. The HTP-1 functionality and control is amazing to say the least... especially with jsoosiah custom UI - https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/monolith-htp-1-16-channel-processor.7745/.

There are several mentions of EGs use of a "$200 Costco Pioneer AVR" in his AV system being auditioned, speakers included.
Dr G knows a wee bit about SINAD and such. As does this gent https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...s/what-matters-about-sinad-measurements.7375/
Beware the ASR/SINAD etc koolaid brigade. They knoweth not of what they speak. Do pay attention when RCAguy, Toole and JJ et al speak, especially JJ.

cheers

I was searching for "costco"... found no mention, but I searched "pioneer" and I see where he was using zip cord... the very basics. Pretty interesting read. Do they still make those speaker kits? I might buy one just to compare them to my ML 15A's... although my bias will surely affect what I hear.

 

[jtwrace]

I agree... SINAD only is certainly not reason to buy, which is why I linked a subjective review. I like to look at everything I can about a product before I buy... and I do consider SINAD, whether I should or should not. Why would objective measurements not be something to consider as much as subjective comments?

Probably the largest factor in my decision was the best bang for the buck in the HTP-1... you get a ton of features (everything I could possibly need - YMMV), and it actually works, which is saying a lot for being in a market of similar products that are plagued with issues. I had two different units that retail for $9600 that were plagued with issues before I had the HTP-1. The NAD M17 processor I had was very nice, but it does not have even remotely close to the features of the HTP-1. The HTP-1 functionality and control is amazing to say the least... especially with jsoosiah custom UI - https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/monolith-htp-1-16-channel-processor.7745/.

Maybe I'll see if I can snag a used one at some point.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Maybe I'll see if I can snag a used one at some point.

They have some refurbs all along, although they go fast.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Maybe I'll see if I can snag a used one at some point.

Ok, I'm drifting out of my lane here, since I will fully admit limited knowledge of SOTA AVRs and AVPs, etc., but, had a Lexicon MC-10, added a Denon X4500H (to compare L& Immersion vs Auro 3D).
With ahem mere mortal budget in mind, what would be wrong with say a Marantz AV7706 ? Around $2.6k street it seems.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I was searching for "costco"... found no mention, but I searched "pioneer" and I see where he was using zip cord... the very basics. Pretty interesting read. Do they still make those speaker kits? I might buy one just to compare them to my ML 15A's... although my bias will surely affect what I hear.

My bad 14yr memory. It was a $150 Costco Pioneer AVR. The knuckleheads at ASR would freak at the "SINAD".
Last I heard, EG is out of the speaker biz. Jason interviewed him, check out his podcast.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

Ok, I'm drifting out of my lane here, since I will fully admit limited knowledge of SOTA AVRs and AVPs, etc., but, had a Lexicon MC-10, added a Denon X4500H (to compare L& Immersion vs Auro 3D).
With ahem mere mortal budget in mind, what would be wrong with say a Marantz AV7706 ? Around $2.6k street it seems.

It's ugly, uses Audyssey instead of Dirac Live, and not near the configurable options (no PEQ, no shelf filters and a bunch more)... and it's ugly (no offense to owners... I had a Marantz, but sold it cause it was ugly). Probably sounds as good as anything on the market though, if you don't need the extra options and can get past it being ugly.

 

[Sonnie Parker]

My bad 14yr memory. It was a $150 Costco Pioneer AVR. The knuckleheads at ASR would freak at the "SINAD".
Last I heard, EG is out of the speaker biz. Jason interviewed him, check out his podcast.

You would have thought that if those speakers were the greatest thing since whatever was before sliced bread that someone would have continued offering the kits, or would have started building them.