Anyone with open-layout room experience setting up 4 subs?

RussNC

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
9
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha CX-A5200
Main Amp
ATI AT500NC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP- X800M2
Front Speakers
Klipsch RP 8000F II
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch RP-504C II
Surround Speakers
HSU CCB-8
Subwoofers
4 Klipsch RP-1600SW
Other Speakers or Equipment
miniDSP 2x4 HD
Video Display Device
VISIO P759-G1
I am placing 4 subs in a family room and have a general question regarding sub placement in an open layout house. I've used REW to take single sub responses in 7 locations and multiple orientations.
The total open area is around 14,000 cu.ft. over four different rooms and windows along one side of the house. The room for movies (about a quarter of the open space and roughly 22'x14' with ceiling sloping from 10-14') is the farthest possible shape from anything used in the Harmon study - multi-shaped, open to several rooms, vaulted ceiling and open areas.
My general question is this:
Is it best to start with the 4 subs in locations with the best single responses, then align and EQ or place the subs along 4 different walls in order to get the best results? The best 4 responses are only on 3 walls.
My guess is the answer is: test using best locations, then test using subs along all four directions from main listening position.
 

jtalden

Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
888
Location
Arizona, USA
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV7705 Pre/Pro
Main Amp
VTV 6 chnl NC252MP P-amp x 2
Additional Amp
Behringer DCX2496 x 2
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
OPPO BDP-103 Universal Player
Front Speakers
DIY SEAS H1456/H1212 Spkr x 5
Subwoofers
DIY JBL 2235H 15" SW x 2
Video Display Device
JVC DLA-X790R
Screen
Da-Lite Da-Snap 39105V - 92"
If you have trouble finding a favorable setup manually, you may want to try MSO.
 

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,148
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape | FireCube | Lenova Carbon X1 and Intel NUC for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
I would test with all four subs combined, as the combined response will be used when in use. The problem with doing it manually is that for the response to be accurate, the subs need to be time-aligned with the main listening position. You can delay one sub and it will change the combined response. You can use REW to time align, but trying different locations and time-aligning for each can be time-consuming. Ask me how I know... I have eight subs. :whistling: This is where something like Dirac Live Bass Control comes in handy. Place the subs where they get the best response individually and let DLBC do the rest.
 

RussNC

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
9
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha CX-A5200
Main Amp
ATI AT500NC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP- X800M2
Front Speakers
Klipsch RP 8000F II
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch RP-504C II
Surround Speakers
HSU CCB-8
Subwoofers
4 Klipsch RP-1600SW
Other Speakers or Equipment
miniDSP 2x4 HD
Video Display Device
VISIO P759-G1
I would test with all four subs combined, as the combined response will be used when in use. The problem with doing it manually is that for the response to be accurate, the subs need to be time-aligned with the main listening position. You can delay one sub and it will change the combined response. You can use REW to time align, but trying different locations and time-aligning for each can be time-consuming. Ask me how I know... I have eight subs. :whistling: This is where something like Dirac Live Bass Control comes in handy. Place the subs where they get the best response individually and let DLBC do the rest.
8 subs? Wow.
Sorry, I need to be more clear in asking questions. This is an open space with vaulted ceiling, so I understand rectangular room and Harmon studies logic goes out the window.
I just added two more subs (now have 4 Klipsch 1600SW) and was wondering whether to place along 4 different directions (in this case NSEW) or in the 4 spots with the strongest results from REW.
Spots 1 and 2 were the weakest results, so I did not know if placing subs in spots 4,5,6 and 7 would be a better placement since they yielded the strongest individual results. I've attached the REW results and a diagram showing floor plan with ceiling heights. I'm using miniDSP 2x4 HD and REW. This seems like something to keep experimenting with - I guess that is why it is called a hobby...
My first shot at this was to place the 4 subs at spots 1,4,6 and 7. I still ended up with a dip at roughly 35Hz after time align and before EQ.

From your response, it looks like I could use the top 4 locations and work from there - that would be 4,5,6 and 7. Guess I'll try that someday I have extra time (and Advil) to move them around. Thanks for the reply.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_3137.jpeg
    IMG_3137.jpeg
    376.8 KB · Views: 23
  • Sub at 7 locations and multiple orientations.jpg
    Sub at 7 locations and multiple orientations.jpg
    133.6 KB · Views: 22
  • 4 subs dip at 35Hz.jpg
    4 subs dip at 35Hz.jpg
    68.8 KB · Views: 20

Sonnie

Senior Admin
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
5,148
Location
Alabama
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
StormAudio ISP Elite 24 MK3 Processor
Main Amp
McIntosh MC1.25KW Monoblock Amps
Additional Amp
StormAudio PA 16 MK3
Computer Audio
Intel NUC w/ Roon ROCK
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Panasonic UB9000 4K UHD Player (for media discs)
Front Speakers
RTJ 410
Center Channel Speaker
MartinLogan Focus C-18
Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Rear Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
Subwoofers
JTR Captivator 2400 x6
Other Speakers or Equipment
VTI Amp Stands for the Monoblocks
Video Display Device
Sony 98X90L
Remote Control
Universal MX-890
Streaming Equipment
Kaleidescape | FireCube | Lenova Carbon X1 and Intel NUC for Roon
Streaming Subscriptions
Lifetime Roon Subscription
Tidal
qobuz
Netflix
Amazon Prime
Satellite System
Dish Joey 4K
Other Equipment
Zero Surge 8R15W-1 | Salamander Synergy Equipment Stand
Yeah... experimentation will be the only way to figure it out. No software or magic will be able to replicate your situation. You can also experiment with adjusting the delay about 5ms on one sub to help eliminate the 35Hz dip. Sometimes changing the alignment slightly can help with dips, and you wouldn't notice it sound-wise, or at least no one at one of our evaluations noticed it when Mark Seaton delayed one of my subs 5ms to get rid of a 30Hz dip I had in my room several years ago (when I had 8x eighteens).

You will likely get better overall low-end response the closer you have them all to a side wall (1, 2, 5, 6, 7).
 

ddude003

AV Addict
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,410
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid 2xAsus1080ti GFX Audirvana Studio, Hang Loose Convolver, Pulsar Massive & 8200, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP-X700 /M Ultra HD 4K HDR & PS5
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna, Lumin iApp, Samsung & Yamaha
Streaming Equipment
Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
I would be tempted to move the screen and main L&R speakers to that left wall between speaker L and position #1... Move your main listening position to face that wall... Stick 2 subs a bit wide of that position at the next walls... Maybe subs at speaker L and position #1ish... The other subs farther behind the main listening position nearer walls at positions 2 and 5... Yes, a little unorthodox and so is your room...
 

RussNC

New Member
Thread Starter
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
9
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Yamaha CX-A5200
Main Amp
ATI AT500NC
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP- X800M2
Front Speakers
Klipsch RP 8000F II
Center Channel Speaker
Klipsch RP-504C II
Surround Speakers
HSU CCB-8
Subwoofers
4 Klipsch RP-1600SW
Other Speakers or Equipment
miniDSP 2x4 HD
Video Display Device
VISIO P759-G1
I would be tempted to move the screen and main L&R speakers to that left wall between speaker L and position #1... Move your main listening position to face that wall... Stick 2 subs a bit wide of that position at the next walls... Maybe subs at speaker L and position #1ish... The other subs farther behind the main listening position nearer walls at positions 2 and 5... Yes, a little unorthodox and so is your room...
I omitted some critical details on the floorplan. Moving the screen is a no-go. This is an multi-angled and open, somewhat common to Florida (even though I'm further north). The 45 degree wall just above the first location for a sub is a fireplace and everything from sub 1 to the bottom of the page is either 7' of window or glass doors. It makes for a great view of the backyard, but about .8 sec RDT. I've got some expert advice on wall and ceiling treatment to bring RDT down below .4, but sub placement looks like an experiment in process for a few days to come.
 

MusicManLen

Member
Joined
May 9, 2023
Messages
64
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
Marantz AV8805A
Main Amp
Proceed HPA3
Additional Amp
Emotiva XPA-6 Gen3
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Oppo UDP203
Front Speakers
GoldenEar Triton One.R
Center Channel Speaker
GoldenEar SuperCenter Reference
Surround Speakers
GoldenEar Triton One.R
Front Height Speakers
Klipsch PRO-18RC 8" Ceiling Speaker
Rear Height Speakers
Klipsch PRO-18RC 8" Ceiling Speaker
Subwoofers
Dual SVS SB16
Video Display Device
JVC RS2000
Screen
Screen Innovations 5 Motorized
Remote Control
Lexicon
While my open areas are different then yours my main theater room is very similar to yours including the barrel ceiling.
My theater room has openings on (2) side walls leading to a front hallway & front door and the other opening leading to a kitchen and rear glass sliding door.
I am running (4) subs with my processor but my setup has (2) SVS SB16 subs placed at each rear side wall past the side openings and feeding my (2) front speakers with built in subs the LFE output as my front subs. I ran Audyssey XT32 with their optional app which provides additional setting options that are not available with the built in Audyssey XT32 on my processor. After running Audyssey which level balanced all (4) subs and making my adjustments using the optional app, I then went into my processor and did some manual adjustments such as raising the sub's volume level by equal amounts on each sub and added 4 feet to the distance setting of each sub. Before making these manual changes I listened to movies and found my bass was a lot softer than I like. After making these manual adjustments I then listened to the same movies and found my bass to be smooth and powerful and balanced in my theater room. Hope this helps.
 

ddude003

AV Addict
Joined
Aug 13, 2017
Messages
1,410
Location
Somewhere Northeast of Kansas City Missouri
More  
Preamp, Processor or Receiver
PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium TubePre (2 channel+sub)
Main Amp
McIntosh MC152 SS Amp (2 channel)
Additional Amp
Yamaha RX-A850 Pro (the other 5 channels lol)
Computer Audio
MacBook Pro, Custom i7 7700k De-lid 2xAsus1080ti GFX Audirvana Studio, Hang Loose Convolver, Pulsar Massive & 8200, LiquidSonics, SoX
DAC
Chord Electronics Ltd. Qutest
Universal / Blu-ray / CD Player
Sony UBP-X700 /M Ultra HD 4K HDR & PS5
Front Speakers
Martin Logan ElectroMotion ESL
Center Channel Speaker
Martin Logan Motion C2
Surround Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
Video Display Device
Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
Screen
Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
Remote Control
PrimaLuna, Lumin iApp, Samsung & Yamaha
Streaming Equipment
Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
Streaming Subscriptions
QoBuz Studio Premier, Amazon Prime & Netflix
Other Equipment
ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...
I omitted some critical details on the floorplan. Moving the screen is a no-go. This is an multi-angled and open, somewhat common to Florida (even though I'm further north). The 45 degree wall just above the first location for a sub is a fireplace and everything from sub 1 to the bottom of the page is either 7' of window or glass doors. It makes for a great view of the backyard, but about .8 sec RDT. I've got some expert advice on wall and ceiling treatment to bring RDT down below .4, but sub placement looks like an experiment in process for a few days to come.
No worries @RussNC there are usually pieces of the puzzle that are an unknown... Speaking of which have you looked at any of the studies regarding multiple subs? For instance https://www.harman.com/documents/multsubs_0.pdf which scratches the surface... And @jtalden's suggestion of MSO is a good one... So many methods, so little time...
 
Top Bottom