Help needed - Subwoofer loundness good but not tight

Hello folks,

I have two subwoofers that I have tried to setup with REW using Mini DSP 2x2 HD. I have good loundness of 105 dbs but the bass does not feel tight. In other words, there is no impact. Can someone help me figure out what can I do to improve my response?

I do feel vibrations in the floor and my windows rattle yet there is not much of a thump that I feel on the chest.

Some things to know

• I do not have a back wall i.e. my room is really large as it opens into breakfast/kitchen area; I am guessing this is contributing to not being able to pressurize the room for thumping effect.
• My subwoofers are on the side instead of the front which I am guessing is adding to my problem as the sound waves are not hitting me directly. They have to hit the front wall where the TV is hung and then bounce back to me hence they lose their impact.

EDITED
My AVR Cross Over is set to 200Hz and speakers set to SMALL. I have FULL Tower Speakers but I am not able to match the mains properly with Subs hence have set them to small for right now as I learn to first tame the subwoofers first.

Thanks in advance for your help.
- achugh

@Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Please the requested information. I cannot attach MDAT files yet as I have not posted here enough so attaching pictures.

Below the response of LEFT SubWoofer (Purple)



Below the response of RIGHT SubWoofer (Light Blue)




Below the response of LEFT+RIGHT SubWoofer (Blue)



Below is the response of LEFT (Purple), RIGHT (Light Blue) and LEFT+RIGHT (Blue) overlayed



Below is the response of LEFT+RIGHT (Blue) and miniDSP PEQed LEFT+RIGHT (Purple)

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:

What is the make and model of sub(s)? And how big is the room (L x W x H)? Also, location in the room, i.e. corner, middle of wall, etc.

Regards,
Wayne

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@Wayne A. Pflughaupt I have shared all the speaker details below in this response. My room size is 45 feet Long x 16 feet Wide x 9 feet High (I believe this is the correct dimension but I maybe off by a small factor). My Main Listening Position (MLP) is the sofa which is about 18 feet from the TV that is hung up over the fireplace in front of me.

I am sharing the picture of this room standing behind the sofa. The CENTER speaker is the only speaker I have made it look built-in as it sits between the fireplace and the TV for the optimal sound as it is at ear height. I had to get a carpenter made a shelf above the fireplace to hold this really heavy speaker since it is not a typical in-wall speaker. I am not a fan of in-wall speakers hence everything is in its wooden case.



Here's my LEFT Wall



And the RIGHT Wall which rattles when I run sweeps in REW as I have loundness working. The frames on the LEFT wall also make noise when either the sweeps are run in REW or an explosion happens in a movie.



And finally a picture of the Subwoofer. Here you can make out that there is no back wall as the room combines into breakfast dinning room which continues to extend into the kitchen. It is an open floor plan with 1 giant rectangular room. There are big holes in this rectangle because as soon as this room ends (basically the other pillar not shown in the picture below) there is about 15 feet of opening on the other wall that opens into staircase/rest of the house before the kitchen wall starts. The small portion of the door you see in the picture below goes out to deck and hence is a continuous wall going to the kitchen.

sm52 said:

I don't see any problems with the operation of the subwoofers themselves. Except that they do not work below 40 hertz. But miniDSP helps them reach 27 hertz. The punch you're expecting is missing due to a timing mismatch between the subwoofers and the main speakers.​

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@sm52 I thought they do work below 40 Hz but that is my ignorant self thinking which is why I am here looking for help. This response is from the MLP (Main Listening Position) where room modes are playing a part hence it gives this impression of them not working below 40Hz as the slopes start after this point. I do understand what you are saying. Looking for solutions though.

Sonnie said:

Tweak City Audio CS18.2 ... are these from Craig Chase? I would say they are quite capable.

Why are you using 200Hz as your crossover? Your RF7 fronts should easily play down to 70-80Hz... I would set the crossover at 80Hz.

You should also be able to run a sweep on the left front speaker, and as long as your Pioneer AVR is set to Stereo, it will capture your sub and front left speaker together, which will show the frequency integration between the subs and front left speaker in one sweep.

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@Sonnie You are correct about my speaker setup although I don't understand how you got all this information as it is not in my signature here. In any case everything you said here is correct. I have two (2) CraigSub 18.2 Single from Tweak City Audio with Klipsch RF7 II as my LEFT and RIGHT towers using RC64 II as the CENTER with four RB8 II as the surrounds for a 7.2 setup which runs on Pioneer Elite SC-37 AVR. My setup is getting 13.5 years old but still going. All the Klipsch speakers were bought at the same time and they use the same speakers with similar wooden case. The RF7 II and RC64 II are timber matched (or that is what was told me when I bought them). The RB8 II for the surrounds are from the same wooden setup but not sold as timber matched. When I bought them for surround use, they were sold as the high end bookshelf speakers for people who do not have the space for the RF7 II towers. I wanted proper surround sound hence I did not go for the 4 or 5 series surrounds that were sold back then. These have the matching 8" drivers and also go till 44Hz.

If I take a speaker reading at 0 degrees 6 inches away with the UMIK-1 pointed directly at the speaker I believe I can get close to 21Hz / 22Hz which is what I recall these subs were marketed for when they were being sold so yes they are capable of going quite low. I am using the Dayton Audio SA-1000 Subwoofer Amps (one for each sub) and my gains on these amps is about 33% so I have lots of room to increase the output, if needed. As part of playing around, I gain matched them and increased the gain from 25% to 33%.

Because I was not getting much of chest thump, hence I am trying different crossovers and things. My AVR has Subwoofer PLUS as an option when the speakers are setup as LARGE. Since all my speakers are LARGE as they go below 80Hz, I have a profile were I have set them up as LARGE for every speaker and the Subwoofer as PLUS with cross over of 200Hz. This sends additional bass to the subwoofers which I think helps when I run REW. On a different profile in AVR, I have all the speakers set as SMALL and the cross over as 200Hz but on this profile around 125 to 250 Hz I think the sound is muffled in a weird way that I am not liking it. For quite sometime I had been running the profile with speakers as LARGE and Subwoofer as PLUS with 80Hz cross over. So I have tried different things. Just looking for a way to improve the setup since I purchased this miniDSP about a year ago to play around.

My Music Playback sounds the worst. My movie playback is decent without the thump. I have two (2) Sonos Play 5 speakers in the same room and when I play the same music on them, the beats on it is tight whereas on my much expensive system, the beats are loud but not tight. While reading online about music, I learned that music instruments have beats going all the way to 180Hz. This is why I am trying to use 200Hz as the cross over. Maybe that is not the right thing.

I also noticed that in REW, if I set the speakers to LARGE and Subwoofer to PLUS then sending the sweep to LEFT or RIGHT speaker gives me valleys around 125 to 150Hz with the way LEFT and SUB mix their phases. Increasing the cross over to 200Hz reduced this deep valley on both LEFT & RIGHT individually.

3dbinCanada said:

I have a few questions. The 1st one is a painfully obvious one but I don't want to make any assumptions: 1) Are you measuring the room response from the main listener position? 2) How are you integrating the subs with the main front left and right speakers? 3) Are you using REW to generate an EQ curve? and 4) What device are you using to control the subs. As Sonnie suggested, bring the cross over down to 80 Hz. Once you have lowered your crossover frequency, you will need to adjust the distance of the sub in the AVR menu so that you can get a smoother transition in the crossover region where the speakers pick up from the subs. Every time you adjust the sub distance, take a measurement to see if the response is what your looking for.

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@3dbinCanada Here are the answers to your questions

1. Yes, these graphs are measured from the Main Listening Position (MLP).
2. I answered here to Sonnie the couple of profiles I have setup in my AVR. Profile #1 like yours where ALL speakers are LARGE, Your XBass is Subwoofer PLUS which is set to YES and crossover at 200Hz for Movie Mode. This is to send extra movie bass to the subs besides the LFE in the movie. Profile #2 like yours for music where ALL the speakers are SMALL, SW PLUS is not an option since everything is small, crossover at 200Hz because the only bass going to subwoofers is because of crossover as there is no LFE in music which is stereo. Comparing my profiles with yours, I believe I am using the opposite profile than yours. I need to switch the profile usage and do some tests.
3. I am using REW to generate the PEQ with Biquads for miniDSP to flatten the response. For this process, I feed USB audio directly from the laptop to miniDSP to bypass any crossover issues from AVR and get the flattest response at MLP before I start integrating AVR. Then I use the AVR's built in room calibration which in my case is Pioneer MCACC. Once AVR calibration is over, I turn off any adjustments for BASS Management for the profile which Pioneer Elite SC-37 calls as S.WAVE (Standing Wave). It is basically 3 PEQ filters that work between 63 and 200Hz with a maximum Q of 10 (as I have never seen is go beyond 9.8). The frequency it chooses are sort of fixed because if I try to set them up, I cannot put in any frequency as a number. I have to choose certain values it presents. Since I already leveled my BASS with miniDSP, I do not want AVR making tweaks to it hence I turn it off.
4. I have my AVR LFE going into AntiMode 8033 which gives me two sub outs which 180 degrees apart (besides the 2 boost modes like LIFT 25Hz and LIFT 35Hz. I am using LIFT 35Hz mode to get some extra bass boost). I feed both these outputs to miniDSP 2x2 HD (which has been flattened by REW). Invert the 180 degrees out to bring it in phase and then use the miniDSP Input PEQ as well as output PEQ (using biquads generated by REW) to send the final signal to subs. Each sub has Dayton Audio SA-1000 amp dedicated which is set to a gain on 33%.

ddude003 said:

I agree with @Sonnie... Looking at the specs of the front L&R Klipsch RF7 Il they go down to 30Hz and the Center Klipsch RC64 Il goes down to 62Hz... I would let your L&R play off as large, full range... Maybe crossover to your center at 65 to 75Hz... I think the thing you may be missing is most likely some time alignment for your subs to your mains...

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@ddude003 How can I find out about this time alignment issue? Is there something I can do in REW to check this out? I did the following so far.

1. Ran a REW sweep from 0-22KHz for the LEFT Channel with Subs turned off.
2. Ran another REW sweep from 0-22KHz for the LEFT Channel with Subs turned on.
3. Compared the two sweeps to see that the overall volume goes up and not down although I do see some valleys appear which is where I thought I should increase the crossover point so that the MAIN and SUB do not fight with each other so much.

ManCave11 said:

Hi,

You should re-measure your crossover. Your speakers are much more capable of producing low frequencies. However, I recommend doing frequency measurements by setting your crossover at a different level (40 to 120, depending on your AVR) and see where you get a good base. In my home theatre, I prefer to set the crossover at 90 to 100 HZ.

Other than this you can apply a low-shelf filter to increase your low base frequency.

Your subwoofer is going straight up to 27-28 HZ. You can increase and extend your low frequency with EQ and a low-shelf filter.

I prefer my subwoofer slop 10db hot from 100HZ to 28HZ (as my sub does not go below 28HZ). I am using only one sub which is Elac 3010 (10" sealed sub).

Yesterday I was doing my 5.1 system manual calibration in my bad room, which is yet to be finished. Speaker alignment, sub+main alignment and crossover alignment are pending. It took me 2:30 in the morning, so I have to leave as it is.

All speaker's crossover is set to 90HZ and for the sake of comparison I aligned all speakers 75db @1KHZ and sub at 75db @ 100HZ.

You can see, the sub is going from 75 Db 100HZ to 88db @ 30HZ. This is 13db hot (I know it is too hot and off from the target curve @ 100HZ, but yet to align and EQ).

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@ManCave11 Ok, I will remeasure the system again. In the movie modes, the AVR adds 10db boost to the LFE channel so when I use lower frequency crossovers I begin to lose output as my MAINS are not given the same signal boost as the LFE channel going to subs.

Since the output is already PEQ by REW BiQuads, do you mean I should apply a Low-Shelf Filter to the Input for increasing the low base frequency? I believe I have good output of loundness. If I create a 100db BiQuad PEQ from REW it will make it fully smooth as the small small 5 db peaks and valleys will be smoothed further where the response will considered flat till 20hz. I don't think that is my problem.

Considering the AVR is recommending the sub output to be somewhere between 85 and 95db for its calibration and I am already an addition 10db roughly hot at 105db I believe I have the same setup of +10db give or take. Is that not correct? When I run calibration from my AVR, it tell me that my sub output is too loud, do I still want to continue? I ignored this warning and continued with the rest of the setup as I intentionally kept the sub a little hot since I do not hear at reference 0 db volume on AVR.

It seems you are doing manual calibration. What do you mean by manually aligning all speakers at 75db @ 1KHz and sub at 75db @ 100Hz? Shouldn't the sub be aligned at 85db @ crossover point as per Dolby recommendations? Or doing it manually the AVR does not add the +10db boost hence it is aligned at the same level. I am confused on this part of manual calibration.

You have smoothing applied and showing full 20KHz response. I am focusing on just the sub response with no smoothing to show that my room modes are creating some peaks and valleys as I do not have a perfect room with perfect placement so it is a difficult room to tame like you are dealing with at the moment.

Sonnie said:

I would also try changing your front RF7 speakers to small and experimenting with different crossoever points. You subs will be much more capable of producing reference levels at below 80Hz than your RF7 speakers, which will probably distort in the lower frequencies at louder volumes. In stereo mode, you will also better see your sub to RF7 integration.

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Ah, thank you for sharing where the information I put in is shown.

I totally agree with you that subs are much more capable of producing better output at lower frequencies. This is why I was playing around with higher crossovers to take full advantage of the subs. I was hoping to use some output from my RF7's as additional 2 subs to make it a 4 sub setup but I am unsuccessful at making that happen. In movie mode, the output from MAINS is not the same level as the subs and then the integration brings the overall volume down or does not help smooth the response so I have stopped trying it and now fully depend on miniDSP to provide a smooth high loundness response. In Stereo Mode, as there is no special boost for Subwoofer as the MAINS level are going to subs, I am still trying to figure out if I can take any advantage of my RF7's low end.

3dbinCanada said:

Listen to this guy chat around 58" minute mark where he talks about loudness curves. If you have flattened the bass response instead of putting in a loudness curve between 20 and a 100 HZ like the author did, then this may be where you might be missing bass. I use it and sounds completely natural both for music and movies as I don't listen at reference levels.

Nice room BTW.

When I run YPAO (after I loaded the REW curves into the miniDSP), I make sure my subs are turned off before running YPAO. Why? I don't want YPAO to mess with REW's EQ of the sub. I run YPAO, no subs, which sets the speakers all to large. I then have to manually go into the menu, add the subs back in, set all speakers to small, manually set all the crossovers to 80 Hz, set the PEQ to flat and then save to memory. This is for movie mode. Its at this point where I start playing with the sub distance to get a smooth integration with the mains. That's the trial an error part where I change the sub distance, run a measurement, take a look, adjust again, measure again, and so on.

Once I get movie mode dialed in with PEQ set to flat, I then dial in music mode but I set the mains to large, turn PEQ off (set to through) and play with sub distances again.

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I have watched this video again just now as a refresher. Besides him, I have also watched good bit of videos from "Obsessive Compulsive Audiophile" and "Home Theater Gamer". My Harmon Curve is provided by the AntiMode 8033 which is a preset curve with either 35Hz boost or 25Hz boost. Looking at the REW response, I am using the 35Hz Boost to get the maximum output around the 30-40Hz area which is referred as Chest Bump frequency to be boosted for the type of effect I am trying to establish besides getting my overall bass response tight.

I also do not listen at reference levels of 0db on the AVR. My AVR is usually set at -20db for everyday listening. If I am alone, then occasionally I will bump it up to -15 db or -10 db at the most.

Thank you. I will let the wife know that she did good in making the room look good. Even though I would love to have 2 more subs, she has put on full brakes on those plans for years as they do not fit anywhere in this room setup. The big bookshelf speakers on the walls are an eye soars for her so I cannot add anymore speakers for Dolby Atmos in the ceiling.

I am not familiar with YAPO system and its strengths and limitation. I am not sure, why you cannot just set the speakers to small and run your calibration. If you sub is already good then YAPO should not touch it. I also do not get your point where you said that you set the PEQ to flat after setting the crossover to 80Hz. I have read that YAPO as all PEQ filters instead of the traditional EQ filters in other AVRs like mine.

If you have set your MAINS to SMALL, I do not understand what integration are you referring to? Are you adjusting the way crossover happens so that there are no valleys around the crossover point?

Wayne A. Pflughaupt said:

Thank you for the detailed reply. Very helpful.

Looking again at your graphs, the reason you don’t have sufficient “thump” is the depression between 40-75 Hz.

I can’t find much on your subwoofers, but I would think any decent 18” sub should have no problem digging down to 20 Hz, if not lower.

I think the main problem is the subs’ location. The aforementioned depression between 40-75 Hz may well be a function of the 16’ distance between the two, and you’re sitting right in the middle of it.

I also expect the location is doing you no favors in the extension department, basically being center-of-wall. I’ve always had the best luck with my subs corner-loaded. Sure, you typically get a peak or two in response, but that’s what the miniDSP is for. I’ve been helping folks with sub placement for over 20 years on various forums, and I can probably count on one hand the instances where placement in or near a corner ended up not being the best location.

I’d suggest moving at least one sub to a front corner long enough to take some measurements for comparison sake. That will give you a better idea of what you’re dealing with.

Also, I’m a bit concerned about the use of two equalizers connected in series. You may be stacking filters on filters, and that’s not best practice. I’d suggest going with one or the other.

I’d also echo the others who have suggested a crossover frequency in the 80 Hz range.

Regards,
Wayne

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@Wayne A. Pflughaupt I'm so sorry, I forgot to see your post last night and did not respond.

You may be correct about the 40-75Hz dip causing issues. If you look at the room pictures I shared above, both these subs are at the corner walls. These are HALF WALLS which you may be able to make out in the 4th (last picture of the room) because there is a RED vase on the HALF WALL behind the sub amp shown in the picture. I am trying to take advantage of the corner boom you are talking about. For a very long time; till I bought miniDSP; I had a boomy room due to this corner sub placement. With miniDSP I am able to control this boom and the response is much better compared to before. Do you still think that moving the sub will help? If yes, in which shape? Diagonal to each other or on the same side front and back? I will have to get some extra wire as my room is pre-wired for these sub at their location. It is lost easier for me to move my sofa few feet forward or backwards.

Here's another graph from this same measurement set in case this helps to find the root cause of this issue.

PURPLE = miniDSP PEQ using USB as the input from REW at -12 dbFS. Basically the ASIO driver that is installed by miniDSP is being used to send digital signal to miniDSP for the 0-24Khz sweep.
RED = AVR Volume -10 set to Bypass. AntiMode set to Bypass. REW sending -12 dbFS via HDMI to AVR. The shape is maintained but it seems AVR is still doing some crossover to the LFE around 200Hz which is the max my AVR supports. To me stacking filters is not making any difference in the graphs so far.
GREEN = Which tracks very close to RED above is where I enabled AntiMode still keeping everything else same i.e. AVR Volume -10, REW -12 dbFS sent via HDMI to AVR. It is reducing the variation between 40-90Hz down to 4db variation.
LIGHT BLUE = AntiMode 25Hz Boost house curve.
LIGHT BROWN = AntiMode 35Hz Boost house curve. This is the profile I am running for testing assuming it gives me the most boost/slope for the effects. It is loud but no "feel every dimension" (joking about Dolby Atmos Marketing here as I do not feel anything).



No matter how much time delay I play around between my subs, I am not able to get rid of the valley between 50 and 60Hz as well as the two valleys around the 100Hz.

Also my AVR does not have any filters for LFE or sub. What it does it, applies PEQ filters to MAINS as a group (both to LEFT & RIGHT at the same time and individually) and it also does the same for CENTER channel individually. There are 3 PEQ filters here as this is a really old AVR from 2009 time frame so it is showing its age in terms of manual adjustment capabilities it offers. It was top of the line AVR of its time from Pioneer.

Todd Anderson said:

I'm looking at these graphs with, perhaps, a different lens than everyone else.

First off, you've got a HUGE room to energize. By my calculation, it's roughly 6,500 cubic feet... and I'm assuming that the room isn't sealed or closed off with doors. Does it open into other spaces in your home?

That, right there, could be one reason you're not feeling that pop to the chest.

Second, looking at your response graphs, it looks like the speakers are rolling off at (in early graphs) around 40hz... in the last measurements more around 20Hz... but you're still getting 85dB at 20Hz.

Can't the OP just EQ everything down up to 100Hz and have a relatively flat response?

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@Todd Anderson Yes I did mention that the room has other openings as well to other parts of the house so it in fact a huge space to fill up. This is why I went with 18" woofers and RF 7 Reference Speakers to get decent sound. In my most recent group, the LIGHT BROWN is the profile in use which I see is at 98 db at 20Hz. How did you interpret 85 db at 20Hz in the most recent graph. Just trying to learn how to read these things better.

Yes, I can EQ to whatever this group suggest and give me any hints on how to do that. What I mean here is:

1. Should I set the speakers to SMALL, set the desired Crossover frequency say 80, 100, 120, 150, 200 etc. Then run MCACC to run the calibration. Then check how the MCACC set everything up with REW. This is very time consuming but doable but also error prone i.e. not easy to compare things well. This is because I will have to connect the Pioneer mic for calibration by MCACC and UMIK-1 for REW to take measurements. The both cannot be at the exact same spot and moving the mic typically have slight variations all the time. I am not trying to mathematically perfect but just want people here to understand what is going to be possible as I try multiple time. Is this expected and is this what I need to do?
2. Should I set the speakers to LARGE, set the default 80 Crossover, enable Subwoofer PLUS mode to send extra base to Subwoofer. Run the calibration. Then start adjusting the crossover only and take different REW measurements. In this case since the speakers are LARGE, I believe the crossover change is only sending less or more base and the impact on MCACC calibration changes should be less. In this case, once I place UMIK-1 for REW measurements I do not have to touch so it should be relatively better to compare the crossover changes in REW compared to #1 method.
3. Follow what @3dbinCanada has mentioned with speakers set to LARGE with no SUB. In my AVR (Pioneer Elite SC-37) this is possible as well. I can then add sub with different crossover values and take REW measurements. This method is similar to #2 option. In this case, should I enable the Subwoofer PLUS option (also called Xtra Bass in some AVRs) when adding the subwoofer to take the REW measurements or not? Does the different crossovers change the subwoofer distance for alignment? Because I would need to set this value when I add a subwoofer after the calibration to get a decent REW readings.

3dbinCanada said:

I would need to read the manual on your Pioneer to further understand how MMAC??? works on your AVR. When I run YPAO, it does all the calculations based on the current settings. With no sub, speakers are set to large. This only affects the bass and the transition region from bass to where the room geometry no longer influences the soundwaves . However, I believe YPAO has the ability to re-adjust its values depending on the PEQ settings, ie flat, through, and front speakers. That's why I use that approach of not including the sub with YPAO after REW has generated the curves.

As Todd mentioned, you have a cavern to fill with bass. Subs can be blended into the room to make them less intrusive. That's an ongoing negotiation/discussion with your spouse.

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@3dbinCanada Pioneer Elite SC-37 MCACC also has this option and I know how to do that. Please see the above 3 methods. Which one I should use? Pioneer has similar adjustments. They called SYMMETRY (where it makes the LEFT/RIGHT Pair as combined adjustment), ALL CH ADJUST (Where each speaker is adjusted individually) and FRONT ALIGN (Where no adjustments are done to front mains as they are used as a reference to adjust everything else).

LOL... "Ongoing negotiations with spouse!". There is no ongoing discussion as it is one of those topics that you never ever utter a word in my house as it is an automatic war with full defenses on from both sides. I get what you are saying. I want to exhaust all options of the current setups as that will be the easiest solution for me.

Todd Anderson said:

I missed the fact that it's MCACC room correction. Generally very good... but poor bass control. I know there's been some discussion about not having two sets of filters (one from MCACC and one from Mini-DSP), but I don't think MCACC applies much of anything down in that region.

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@Todd Anderson Actually it is NOT. The 2nd set of graphs are from AntiMode 8033 in the mix. My setup goes as follows

Pioneer Elite SC-37 >>> AntiMode 8033 >>> miniDSP 2x2 HD >>> Subwoofer Amps (Dayton Audio SA-1000; one for each subwoofer) >>> Subwoofer

I have set S.WAVE (Standing Wave) to OFF which is the BASS Management portion of MCACC.