My project, Opinions appreciated

charbug

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I finally got some time to work on my project again and wanted to seek out opinions on what people much more knowledgeable than me see from the data.
I will attach pics and provide the best info I can.
It is a two way setup using Mini DSP hardware to control most everything. First the speakers,
The Klipsch Jubilee consists of a redesigned dual-mouth ("W" section) bass bin having horn expansion path in one axis (versus both the horizontal and vertical in the original Khorn bass bin), and the K-402 high frequency horn on top that uses a full-range 2" compression driver, thus bringing the Klipschorn design back to its original two-way design of the 1940s and '50s that its inventor wished it to be. The crossover point is nominally 450-500 Hz.
Attached is the room layout for now and I have spent days trying to find the best positions for the speakers and listening position.
I may put this in a couple threads due to size of attachments, Not sure of the limits on the size for them
 

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charbug

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I isolated the Speakers the best I could with absorption and used REW to help me PEQ the Bass Bins and the horns. Measurements were taken at about 1 meter on axis for each. The Crossover is what everyone uses around 450HZ, LR48. Here is the REW data for each driver and the combined REW file once I was done. It is so hard to do due to the room playing a factor. I am curious if anyone sees anything that is flat out really wrong or bad.
 

Attachments

  • 1 bass bin.mdat
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  • 2 horn.mdat
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  • combined.mdat
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charbug

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Once I get in the listening position here is the right, left and both speaker data. I do have some questions, should I spend more money on more absorption for the room? I have some in the room now and dont want to over dampen. I have been advised I need more but really hesitant to buy more until I get more people to look at this.
Just to be upfront I am learning as a go and this is a new area of physics that I know little about and I will be honest I am not that technical. I started reading Floyd Toole's book on psychoacoustics and it is hard for me to tally comprehend.
I am more than willing to gather info or follow recommendations to try and get this dialed in to what is considered descent. Love to hear feedback.
 

Attachments

  • both speakers.mdat
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  • left.mdat
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  • right.mdat
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ddude003

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Now there are some horns!!! Klipsch Jubilees are corner horns... Even though you don't really have corners, have you tried them in the corners?

There is an odd power bump around 900Hz / 1kHz
The bass looks a little rough... I wonder if they smooth out if they are in the corners?

How do they sound if you stand a few feet farther back from the couch?
 

charbug

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In the corners it is much worse. Dont understand that at all. I spent days moving around in this room and this is about the best spot. I do plant to do some more searching for a better spot.
 

ddude003

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I think that is because you don't really have corners or walls in your room, just bookshelves... Please don't get me wrong, in general its not a bad thing... Just not so great for corner horns... Actually, the horns look pretty good from the main listening position +/- 3 or 4 db from ~450Hz to ~10kHz... Its the bass bins that are pretty rough...

You can always drag them forward into the room up to about 7.5 feet and 4.5 feet from the side walls... And try a listening position 7.5 feet from the rear wall... Try a toe in a foot or two in front of the listening position and a foot or two behind the listening position...

I could never get my Altec Lansing Voice Of The Theaters to sound good in a small room or garage... They did really rock in small halls and clubs though... Its just the nature of the beast...
 
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charbug

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So do you think it is worth spending money on more room treatments for the low end? also does anyone know anyone really good that I can work with if I do go after this low end with some type of treatment? I am curious how you came up with the 7.5 feet and 4.5 feet from the side walls... And try a listening position 7.5 feet from the rear wall ? Just wondering? I was asked to add a timing reference and I did in the measurements below.
 

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  • both speakers.mdat
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  • left speaker.mdat
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  • right speaker.mdat
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Sonnie

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I love the look of the room... and those Jubilees... sweeeeeet! :T
 

charbug

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Thank you for the complement. If you like dynamics there is no better. I just need to get this room dialed in and enjoy them
 

ddude003

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That looks like @Sonnie's next DIY project... :heehee:

@charbug, Those distances are me playing fast and loose with thirds... It looked like you had, more or less, an equilateral triangle which is, more or less, a near field listening position with just about the biggest freak'in corner horn speakers there is...

You could try some base absorbers on the back wall and I suspect that EQ is your friend... Have you thought about a house curve that pushes those bins down a touch and a slow slope down from the low frequencies to the highs?
 
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charbug

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I wish Sonnie would jump into this one. I would welcome it. Yes I have thought about it. I have yet to run Dirac and was going to implement a house curve then
 

ddude003

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Sony UBP-X700 /M Ultra HD 4K HDR & PS5
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Martin Logan Motion C2
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Martin Logan Motion 4
Surround Back Speakers
Martin Logan Motion 4 (yes, another set of these)
Subwoofers
Martin Logan Dynamo 700
Other Speakers or Equipment
Cifte 12AU7 NOS & Genalex Gold Lion Tubes in Pre
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Samsung The Premiere LSP7T UST Laser Projector
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Elite Screens Aeon CLR3 0.8 Gain 103-inch
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Netgear Nighthawk S8000 Streaming Switch, Lumin U1 Mini Streamer Transport
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ThrowRug, SaddleBlankets, WideBand & Bass Traps...

Sonnie

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RTJ 410
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Front Wide Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT
Surround Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Surround Back Speakers
JTR Neosis 210RT
Front Height Speakers
JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
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JTR Neosis 110HT-SL
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JTR Captivator 2400 x6
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Hmmm... I'm certainly no expert at it... but from what I see, your response above the transition frequency looks really good to me... seriously good. So EQ (Dirac Live) should take care of everything below that, which is basically everything <500Hz. You may have to drop everything >500Hz down with your target so that your aren't boosting too much <500Hz, but it should work out okay I would think. You'll just have to raise the volume, although I'm guessing you have plenty of headroom with these if you have any kind of power at all. What are your amps?

As for treatments... all of your reflections are 1-2ms... probably bouncing off your leather sofa... otherwise you are below -20dB, so I don't know what else you could do there. Someone who knows more about it might have a suggestion.
 

bvocal

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This is hard to parse.... because your supplied measurements are with EQ in use, correct? (you said it's all controlled by a mini DSP) It is not possible to make good comments on the room acoustics when EQ is in use.
So, because of that, I can't help at this time, but... I will put a few things out there.
The room is a swell place to be, feels nice... unfortunately the stuff that makes it nice is playing huge havoc with your sound, if my past experiences are indicative...
2 walls, half the room, is lined with floor to ceiling resonance generators, also called 'bookshelves'. Fireplaces, cabinets, closets... ANY 5 sided structure in the sound field will make a resonance. And you have a lot of them all tuned to the same frequencies. I wager that is your likely primary offender at this point. But as I said, if your measurements are while using EQ then you are hiding/altering the issue, so I can't really see the truth.
Looking at L & R you can see dips and bumps in the base response that are not there in the nearfield, this is room modes and resonances in action. It is impressive how well they even each other out by the listening position in stereo. Leaving the 17db rollercoaster bit in the middle. This section also looks created by room mode/resonance, I would lean heavily towards the resonances/bad reflections side of that in my search, and that would aim my focus at the TV, the bookshelves, the speakers over there on the right, and the whole lump of gear is a bad acoustics bit being right there.
If I were you I would not rush to go buy more acoustics stuff, I suggest spending time and attention on figuring out how these room elements are effecting the sound.
Do you have any of those old school flannel lined square ended sleeping bags? Those things are like a black hole for sound... put one up on each side... covering the gear and TV and covering as much bookshelving as you can and see what happens to the measurements. You should also chuck a thick cotton or wool blanket, folded up, on the leather foot stool unit.
While I was doing my small room I came across all of these issues (and many many more)... I had bookshelves, 2 of them, 2'x6', in the back of the room. I could not get one bass note to behave. Eventually I decided to redo the back of the room ( I had done everything else pretty extensively), now here I'll state that the key play when doing acoustic treatment is to have music playing when you install parts, as you can hear the effect it has in real time as you put the item in place and take it out. As I removed books and moved the shelving I could hear the bass note cure itself...This lets you know it's going to do something and where to listen (frequency), then sit down in 'the' spot and listen to the effect of the new stuff. New stuff is not always a win, like, if it has no effect in said spot, don't put it up there, and if it has a bad effect, like it dulls the tone in some region, it's not the right solution. For me doing this is something of a piece by piece process so you can be positive about each step you take. If you just go and put up a whole room full of stuff in silence and then listen and it's junk... you won't know why...
I have a friend who is smarter, more wealthy than me and has been a dedicated audiophile for 40 years. Went to hear his 50k system. I noticed a bad resonance in the sound. I didn't say anything... but he offered there was a bass problem and he needed to spend 40k on Pass amps to solve it. I said he didn't have an amp problem and the bass issue was not the Magico drivers being diverted by rebounding sound waves, as he theorized, but I wager the issue is the two driverless 12" 3 way speaker cabs from the 70s that he had holding up the TV against the wall between the speakers (4-5 feet out from wall). He looked at me like I was fking insane. I badgered him once to get them out of there, it's cheaper than two Nelson Pass mono blocks, will take less time to test than it takes to order two mono blocks... Eventually he did remove them and the bas resonance was gone. Now he needs the amps because of no micro detail.... which is also an acoustics problem, not an amp issue...
Back to the beginning, if you are using EQ as you go while trying to sort this... IMHO you are making it way harder to solve. Best to do acoustics work without any EQ. But I also hold that EQ should not be needed for a stereo and is a negative in every event.
It is doable to passively treat a room and get flat response without EQ.... for everything above 200hz give or take, and to my ears when that is done right it beats EQed sound 1000 to 1, to my ears DSP EQ sucks the life (musicality) right out.
The only thing that requires more is bass... and while 99.999999999999% of people will banter on about bass traps... I am not one of them, because passive bass traps do not trap bass, actually, nothing does. If you had giant room mode problems I would talk about my active bass solution that has nothing to do with DSP or altering the signal to the mains in any way shape or form. But I guess I'll wait until you post the same but with a subwoofer involved, as I reckon if room modes are gonna show up, they will then...
Last note... absorption and resonance treatment for sounds that are a negative contribution (first reflections, weird features in the room etc) and then diffusion to create the sound stage/sound scape. both must be used with ninja like precision.
Acoustic solutions are not voodoo, just wildly complex physics... but once you get a grip on it all it can be sorted with a reasonable amount of money and simplicity, especially via the DIY route, which in most cases is the wise route because few of us have pure clean walled rooms to work with, so custom shapes and sizes for absorption units and diffusers is often the ticket.
And lastly, if you had more omni directional speakers your room would be soooooooo much worse, but being all horns you are pretty well minimizing sidewall and stage wall interactions. But he back wall should be able to absorb a lot of sound to keep it from returning into the listening area.
Perhaps one or two of these many words will help, if not, apologies for wasting your time.
 
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KlipschMuseum

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As mentioned before, the Jubilee bass bins are 1/8 space speakers, you can pull them out slightly from the corners but they really need corner loading. Another thing that many Jube owners have found is tipping the 402 down a bit so you are not getting early reflections off of the ceiling.

You can get all of the basic crossover settings, eq. etc. over at the Klipsch Forum. There are in PDFs. Chris over there has helped a lot of people using REW, you get the measurements, send him the file, and he has made recommendations. People started with EV DX-38's originally, then upgraded as the active crossover got better. There is a bass boost setting that came with a new woofer (that your set probably has) that will get you even better performance on that.
 
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