Help choosing a DSP processor for an all analog 2 channel system. MiniDSP 2x4HD is not my taste.

[astolfo]

Hello, I am reluctantly considering a DSP processor for my system that is composed of a TechDas AFIII premium, Manly Lab Steelhead, Pathos Heritage, Tannoy Canterbury and 2 REL #25. I can't add more treatment and I am still having lots of dips and peaks in the 180-230Hz>15Hz.
the intention is to manage the 2 REL #25s, so they can be play in phase; and if the DSP processors is really good, I would be willing to get the speakers there too.
A colleague of mine and I spent a lot of time trying to make the MiniDSP 2x4HD sound good and we measured with REW for an entire afternoon, but I rather not have DSP that the sound coming out the MiniDSP because in my ears the MiniDsp robed all the magic on my system. Is there a better option?
Thank you!

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

I can’t tell from your equipment list how you could utilize the miniDSP in your signal chain, since your integrated amp does not appear to have both pre-out and main-in connections or bass management.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[astolfo]

It does have pre out and main in

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

With no details on how you’re using or implementing the miniDSP, and no graphs to see what you’re calling “lots of dips and peaks” look like, all I can do is speak in generalities.

It’s possible you’re going overboard on equalization trying to get the magical ruler-flat line.

It’s possible the 2x4 is not up to par with the rest of your system. Personally I’m leery of using budget DSP products in my signal chain for the main channels. Especially if the manufacture doesn’t publish things like frequency response and signal-to-noise ratio specs.

As far as better options, one of miniDSP’s upscale models might be a better choice, especially if you’re using it full range and not dedicated to the subwoofers. You might also have better luck using higher-end pro audio digital signal processors from companies like Ashly, BSS, Klark, QSC or Yamaha, to name a few.

I’ve been using vintage Yamaha YDP2006 equalizers for years, and found they are pristine. However, my system is not in the same league as yours, so your mileage may vary. I’ve noticed these are getting hard to come by in recent years.

Since you have connections between the pre-amp and amplifier, you might consider just keeping it analog all the way. Since digital is all the rage, there is no shortage of vintage analog pro-audio electronic crossovers and parametric equalizers in the used market. Ashly, Klark, White Instruments, TDM to name a few.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[astolfo]

With no details on how you’re using or implementing the miniDSP, and no graphs to see what you’re calling “lots of dips and peaks” look like, all I can do is speak in generalities.

It’s possible you’re going overboard on equalization trying to get the magical ruler-flat line.

It’s possible the 2x4 is not up to par with the rest of your system. Personally I’m leery of using budget DSP products in my signal chain for the main channels. Especially if the manufacture doesn’t publish things like frequency response and signal-to-noise ratio specs.

As far as better options, one of miniDSP’s upscale models might be a better choice, especially if you’re using it full range and not dedicated to the subwoofers. You might also have better luck using higher-end pro audio digital signal processors from companies like Ashly, BSS, Klark, QSC or Yamaha, to name a few.

I’ve been using vintage Yamaha YDP2006 equalizers for years, and found they are pristine. However, my system is not in the same league as yours, so your mileage may vary. I’ve noticed these are getting hard to come by in recent years.

Since you have connections between the pre-amp and amplifier, you might consider just keeping it analog all the way. Since digital is all the rage, there is no shortage of vintage analog pro-audio electronic crossovers and parametric equalizers in the used market. Ashly, Klark, White Instruments, TDM to name a few.

Regards,
Wayne

Hello Wayne, the MIniDSP test was to see how it worked and now I feel it was a mistake because you are right, even without any adjustments and in my ears it sounded horrible. I am looking at a Trimmov 2ST HiFi, do you have a couple of processors you would recommend? My dealer in the USA is offering the Trimmov for $5700 brand new.
Here are my latest measurements of my system as is without anything in the analog path and the zip contains all the measurments


the smoothing is 1/24

 

[astolfo]

Hello @Wayne A. Pflughaupt the file with all the measurements is in the link bellow, it would be great to get your opinion on the sound and a couple DSP appliance recomendations.
Thank you
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gd59dA68CUZN6UeGhfE9dFWjD7cp4CgC/view?usp=sharing

 

[DonH57]

If all you want is to manage the subs, you could try an Anti-Mode: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

They also have full-range models: http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products.shtml

HTH - Don

 

[BenToronto]

He but I rather not have DSP that the sound coming out the MiniDSP because in my ears the MiniDsp robed all the magic on my system. Is there a better option?

The solution is to do blind testing, assuming your set-up was done properly.

 

[Ian Eales]

REL doesn't list the remote control functionality for #25.

IMO the miniDSP 2x4HD is superb in the digital domain and mediocre using the analog input. I use two 2x4HD in my tube tri-amp w subs.

Assuming the REL has adequate control: Level, CONTINUOUS 0-180° Phase, Polarity, variable XO and slopes, I'd add a passive 6dB 42Hz filter to the mains and integrate using the REL controls.

 

[dsnyder0cnn]

Full disclosure: I've personally never tried their products, but I've read good things about DEQX. They should have a product in your price range.

Choose a DEQX - DEQX

DEQX Audio Processors The new DEQX Gen4 speaker calibration and room correction processors feature an order-of-magnitude improvement in resolution, all-new digital and analog hardware and unparalleled connectivity. LS200 Integrated Power Pre-4 Digital Preamp Pre-8 Advanced HD-Active Subscribe...

www.deqx.com

This will definitely be quite a step up in features, sound quality (and price) from miniDSP.

For 2-channel, I would run the Tannoy Canterbury's full-range (the way Tannoy designed them to operate) and use the high-level inputs on the REL's. Although well-implemented DSP can be impressive, I would not underestimate the benefit of adding bass traps. The ASC IsoThermal TubeTraps can produce impressive results, in my experience.

 

[VinceHoffman]

For two channel systems with a high-end analog source, my experience with full range DSP EQ has been uniformly less than satisfying and mirrors the OP's observation. The ADC->DSP->DAC cycle required by this approach truly does suck out all the magic of LP playback. And that occurred even when running purportedly much higher end Meridian electronics and later a well regarded DEQX Premate. However if you run a 2.1 system with a sonically transparent analog electronic crossover (I use a JL Audio CR-1), then I find there is ZERO sonic compromise with using DSP on just the .1 subwoofer signal channel.

So these days my strategy is to first make "best-practice" use of broadband absorptive and diffusive passive room treatment to address my room's sonic warts. Then restrict the use of powerful DSP based EQ to my subwoofer passband at 80Hz and below where DSP capably addresses my room's primary length and width modal frequency misbehavior. I also run a four subwoofer Distributed Bass Array to mitigate low frequency modal misbehavior. My DSP device of choice these days is a DSPeaker Anti-Mode 2.0 run in it's optional multi-subwoofer mode to provide both corrective PEQ and time alignment between the front and rear pairs of subwoofers.

 

[ddude003]

There is also old school eq by Manley and Neve... And I agree that the room needs attention before eq... Because analogue baby...

 

[BenToronto]

For two channel systems with a high-end analog source, my experience with full range DSP EQ has been uniformly less than satisfying and mirrors the OP's observation. The ADC->DSP->DAC cycle required by this approach truly does suck out all the magic of LP playback.

You seem to have forgotten that even your "high-end analog source" has gone through millions of non-linear transistor junctions and a large amount of digital processing on its way to your carefully curated audio system, with or without a DSP introduced at your end.

Normal human arrogance to dismiss criticism of non-blinded tests. But it's essential. And good "lab practice" matters too. One reason is because we adapt to what we are used to hearing (we normalize it, so to speak) and deviations from that pallette sound off... until we get used to that sound. So quick-change A-B-B-A testing needed.

 

[astolfo]

Hello @dsnyder0cnn How are you doing? I was looking at the DEQX, Trimmov 2ST HiFi/Pro. I wish there was more information on the new generation of DEQX, I contacted them but not much response yet.
I am kind of tempted to get the Trimmov 2ST HiFi and see how it sounds. I just want to deal with the subs.

@VinceHoffman, I have done as much as I can with room treatment, and I still have some undesirable peaks and dips.


@Ian Eales the #25s have Level, adjustable to one setting XO, but does not have Polarity and slopes
There is a 0-180° Phase switch but I do not know what you mean with continuous 0-180° Phase.

What bothers my ears is that I can't get the 60Hz to 20Hz and 7kHz+ where I want them. I tried crossing over at 100Hz-120Hz but still missing precision and the highs are a little too much. I might have to learn to live to with them if I can't get a DSP processor for my subs that take the life out of them.

 

[VinceHoffman]

Hey Ben (Soundemon on CAM?),

When the airy spaciousness present in the high frequencies of my favorite vinyl LPs were replaced by a much drier, closed in high frequency sound and my massive soundstage which often exceeds the physical dimensions of my listening room was reduced to just the space between my left and right loudspeakers, the introduction of a purportedly high-end fullrange DSP EQ was laughably and negatively obvious to even the untrained ear. While the low frequency EQ was audibly beneficial, for the rest of the sonic spectrum the DSP cure was worse than the disease.

I spent a decade and LOTS of money trying to satisfactorily integrate great vinyl playback into an otherwise digital system. The end result was that I gradually stopped listening to vinyl because the sound was such a letdown. My "having my cake and eat it too" solution has been the addition of a parallel all analog stereo source-to-subwoofer crossover signal chain in my gear rack, one which shares only my left and right ATC active mains and the DSP EQed Seaton Subwoofer array with my multi-channel electronics.

Don't believe me? You and I don't live that far apart, an hour drive down the QEW/403. You are welcome to come by for a listen...

 

[astolfo]

@Ian Eales do you have a recommendation for me to look at for the passive filter, I do not like to spend time building one.

@BenToronto The Pathos Heritage is Hybrid, but I also brought to the USA a 1990 Ongaku, that I just got restored by Audio Note, so when I listen to the Ongaku the only digital thing in the system is the records recordings.

All I want is the DSP for the subs, I do not see my self putting my speakers and amplifier and speakers through a processor.
I am in agreement with what @VinceHoffman is saying on the sound of good recorded record through analog there isn't something better. My dealer in Barcelona and I have been working together on my systems since 1984, he always challenges me on new or old equipment, and no one time I was not able to say SS vs Analog difference. At the same time I bought a pair of dartzeel nhb458 a long time ago because I really like the sound, and even after upgrading to nhb468 my ears can say the difference. All analog has something very special for my years. I am not saying the nhb468 is bad because to my ears it is very very good in large orchestra music and Pink Floyd for example, but in quartets, solo instruments, Spanish guitar, Tango and Flamenco the analog systems sound better to me.

I do not need a blind test to tell what a component influence on the sound makes. I know if what I am listening is with potential and my ears need to relearn or if a component just robes my ears from the sound I like. It could be a great component, but I just do not like. For example, I know the Gryphon Diablo 300 is a very good amplifier and I recognize this, but something it does makes my ears squeak and I can't listen for long.

Sorry for my grammar, English is not my native language.

 

[Ian Eales]

@ astolfo:
continuous 0-180° phase control means that you can set the phase adjustment to any value between 0 and 180°. Without it, you either need time delay or a strong back to shift the subs. This page covers my 20 years dealing with subs ieLogical Subterranean Homesick Blues

To use a Hi Pass on the mains, you need a power amp input. As far as a High Pass filter, I don't see a power amp input, only a pre out on the Heritage so that is not going to help.

Suggestion when posting: Tell us what is what: Pathos Heritage integrated amplifier. Other than knowing Tannoy speakers, I'd not heard of any of your gear, which looks very nice...

 

[astolfo]

@Ian Eales I take your point on the description of what I have.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

Hello @Wayne A. Pflughaupt the file with all the measurements is in the link bellow, it would be great to get your opinion on the sound and a couple DSP appliance recomendations.
Thank you
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gd59dA68CUZN6UeGhfE9dFWjD7cp4CgC/view?usp=sharing

You can attach REW .mdat files to your posts. Look for the "Attach files" icon below the text box.

Regards,
Wayne

 

[astolfo]

@Wayne A. Pflughaupt For some reason they get deleted....
What is the max size for attachments?

 

[Ian Eales]

I had a look at the measurements, but there's nothing I can tell from them about the sound.

Have you tried room simulation in REW to see the effects of various speaker and sub positions? Unfortunately, REW doesn't handle asymmetric room shapes.

With your gear, I would forgo any external add on hardware.

This procedure will work, but it is time consuming.

1. Find the best sounding position of the mains w/o the subs. Worry less about bottom and more about sound stage and image presentation
2. Now determine the lower corner frequency of the mains in their location w REW measuring at the LP.*
   1. Since you have two subs, symmetrical location is probably best. Outside mains, front and rear center, mid wall on the sides, etc.
3. Find some well recorded material with true ambient low end: Pipe & Drum corps, Pipe Organ recorded in a good space, live jazz combo in a good room
4. Set sub XO to main low -3dB frequency at minimum level
5. Increase sub level until sub main bass is just audible and acoustic space fills in
6. Now adjust level, Hz, phase, polarity and location in small increments to obtain optimum - TAKE COPIOUS NOTES and take photos of sub controls to allow easy reset when you go in the wrong direction.

[BTW your English if fine]
* Moving Microphone Measurement will help reduce room node issues.

 

[Todd Anderson]

@Wayne A. Pflughaupt For some reason they get deleted....
What is the max size for attachments?
View attachment 50652

Weird... that shouldn't be rejected. Can you try logging out and logging back in... then retry attachment?

 

[astolfo]

@Todd Anderson I have logged out, clear cookies, cached data, passwords....etc.etc. No luck with Edge, Chrome, Bravo or Firefox.

@Ian Eales I agree with you, at the time being I am passing on the processors. I found someone in my work that has a similar setup to my and tuned by a pro with a Trimmov, and still feel that I leave more under the table than what I get.
Thank you for the guidance. I will try to go over the mains and subs again but L shape rooms with vaulted roofs and wood house is not a good combination.
What is LP* ?

 

[VinceHoffman]

...What is LP* ?

Listening Position. And the oft used MLP is an acronym for Main Listening Position.

 

[astolfo]

@VinceHoffman thank you.