Behringer EP4000 for Sub Amp and Fan Mod vs Dayton SA1000 Sub Amp

[Sonnie]

One of my Behringer EP2500 amps bit the dust after 10+ years of good service. I know the EP4000 is pretty much the direct replacement and the Digi-Key P14751-ND seems to be the best fan for the fan mod. Cost with fan is about $325. I would go ahead and get two of them... so figure $650 total.

Thinking about picking up the Dayton SA1000 instead... as it has the better look, no fan mod needed, no 1/4" adapter needed... and while not quite the same power, should be plenty for my Dayton Ultimax 18's... although they will cost a bit more at about $800.

Really to be fair about it... probably the EP2000 is more comparable in power to the SA1000... so it's really about $520 vs $800.

Anyone had any experience with the SA1000?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

One of my Behringer EP2500 amps bit the dust after 10+ years of good service. I know the EP4000 is pretty much the direct replacement and the Digi-Key P14751-ND seems to be the best fan for the fan mod. Cost with fan is about $325. I would go ahead and get two of them... so figure $650 total.

Thinking about picking up the Dayton SA1000 instead... as it has the better look, no fan mod needed, no 1/4" adapter needed... and while not quite the same power, should be plenty for my Dayton Ultimax 18's... although they will cost a bit more at about $800.

Really to be fair about it... probably the EP2000 is more comparable in power to the SA1000... so it's really about $520 vs $800.

Anyone had any experience with the SA1000?

I have used the equivalent plate amps for years. I have one that still works out of a total of 4.

I've read articles stating that they don't meet power specs but then the Class G topology also relies on a reactive driver load so it's probable the amp is better than people think.

In any case, I would not buy the plate amps again. I've switched to using pro amps and I'm much happier. The Crown amps I have are much quieter than Behringer amps. I recently was given a 6000dsp, my first direct experience with a Begringer amp, and was shocked at how loud the fan is. My Crown DSi is a million times quieter. I need to check which, but the DSi is an American made cinema equivalent of a fairly cheap crown amp.

If you don't want or need dsp, QSC has a cinema amp that goes on eBay for cheap quite a bit. May be worth a look. Many are backups from cinemas and saw little to no use.

 

[Sonnie]

Don't really need any DSP, as my Dirac Live will take care of all of the equalization.

The more I have read about the Samson SA1000... it tends to shut down relatively easy, so I am not sure that amp would be the right one.

The Crown XLS 1002 is close in price to the EP4000 and quieter for sure, but only about half the "real" power. It's all the power I really need, but I still like having the headroom of the EP4000, which will give me right around 1900 watts of real power at 4ohms bridged. The XLS 1002 is rated at 1100 watts and I believe puts out a real 900 watts into 4 ohms.

Looking at some of the response graphs, I think the class H in the EP4000 might serve better below 20Hz, as it does not drop off quite as severely as the class D amps I have seen response graphs on.

The iNUKE 3000 might work okay, but it's silver/ light gray... and I want black or dark gray amps.

Fan loudness really isn't a big issue with the fan exchange being so easy. I've changed out a few of them on my older EP2500's.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Sounds like some EP4000's would make sense then. I haven't owned Behringer amps long enough to speak to their reliability but they have a reputation of being decent as long as you don't abuse them. I know a few people who go through them quickly but they also stress them pretty heavily.

I can speak directly to the Dayton plate amps and they were not reliable For me. I like Dayton and buy there stuff all the time. I found all plate amps to be unreliable so it may just be a packaging thing.

Ive owned Crown Dsi amps for about ten years now and none have failed. The only problem I had was that the fan got noisier than it was when new and the power switch broke. Both were easily and cheaply replaced.

 

[Sonnie]

10+ years from my EP2500's and I know Joe has two of those and I suppose they are still running... and I may have given Wayne one that bit the dust a couple of years ago. I'd say they are fairly reliable.

 

[tesseract]

Anyone had any experience with the SA1000?

The one running my dual Chase subs just loafs right along, never lighting the half power warning unless I get crazy with it. Been going for 7 years now, no issues.

 

[Sonnie]

I went ahead and grabbed a couple of the EP4000's... wow are they super loud without the fan mod.

I turned them off until I can get the fans in, which I just ordered from Digi-Key.

Digi-Key part number: P14751-ND

 

[AudiocRaver]

I amusing Crown XLS 1502, one per main (like a monoblock on each side) and am very happy. Have never heard the fan turn yet.

 

[AudiocRaver]

Not all of the pro amps, even the Crowns, will "double down" the power into a lower R load, The XLS series will almost do that. Forget bridged mode, it doubles the damping factor.

Edit: Higher damping factor might be OK for a sub, though -- what are those big silly things for anyway? Heehee

Crown XLS Series:

 

[tesseract]

Bridging mono will decrease the damping factor by half and typically the impedance load capability. Say the amp does 2 ohm stereo, it will rise to 4 ohm minimum in mono.

 

[Greg Dunn]

I bought a UMAX-18 kit a few months ago and because it was the easy path I chose the bundle which had the SPA1200DSP amp. My first amp would lock up when it went into standby and had to be power cycled. The replacement amp worked fine for a while and then suddenly muted one day. It seems to be accepting and processing the signals, but the output is silent. The P-E crew has been very communicative and honest about helping me get the units replaced, but the latest issue seems to require a redesign or updates at the factory so it's going to be a while before they can replace it again. Note that it's not the DSP but basic amp functionality that has been breaking.

The result is that I am using a Crown XLS-1500 instead of the SPA1200DSP and it has actually been a better choice. I can't see that the Dayton amp's DSP did anything for me that REW and my miniDSP couldn't. I don't know that the other Dayton plate amps are as trouble-ridden as this one, but I'd be concerned. Also, while the internal firmware of the SPA1200DSP works OK, their so-called PC GUI which is so highly touted on their website is nearly unusable and the iPhone app is problematic as an interface. So you're down to using the built-in controls which don't give you 100% of the amp's capabilities.

As for the Behringer, I have heard far too many horror stories about their reliability (some from friends, others online) to be really excited about investing in one. Maybe I'd get one which runs forever, but I have a lot more faith in the Crown and since I got one lightly used for even less than the Behringer... we'll see where this goes. At the moment I'm shying away from recommending the Dayton plate amps though.

 

[Sonnie]

I've owned quite a few of the Behringers and had pretty good luck with them, considering what they cost. They are fairly cheap to replace if one goes out. I think to get the same "tested" power in a Crown, I'll have to spend almost twice the money if it's a new unit... (or maybe it was 3 Behringers to 2 Crowns)... so I basically have a little room to spare if one does happen to go out.

 

[Greg Dunn]

No doubt there are Behringers which work flawlessly from day one and last a lifetime; and I must admit that they are priced very attractively. I'm glad, though, that we have options. As an electrical engineer who has done a lot of audio work, I just see red flags on some brands which make me nervous. That's not intended to denigrate others who are happy with them, of course!

The Crowns look pretty robustly designed (I have a service manual for my XLS-1500) and seem to be made to last. At half the price of the Dayton plate amp, I'm pretty happy. Edit: some people have voiced concerns that the Crowns have a built-in LF rolloff below 20 Hz. I've used the Dayton amp and a Carvin borrowed from my bass rig, and they all are flat down to at least where the sub gives up (around 13 Hz). So if the XLS series has a rolloff, it's insignificant.

And while I'm very pleased with the support I'm getting from Parts-Express, there are little oddities about the Dayton designs which also concern me. They've had units where the output connector has pulled loose due to excessive tension from the zip tie holding it in place; they've had firmware glitches which cause the amps to lock up; and the user software is ... not very good. When working, they're fine. Nonetheless, I'm glad I made the decision to not install mine in the speaker enclosure; when it's down, I can still use the sub.

 

[EndersShadow]

Hi guys, first post here, but I've been around the block on some other forums (like AVSForum, HTShack, Polk Audio), all under this username.

I'm writing here because I just picked up a EP4000, and I currently own 2 Crown XLS2000's, and previously I had a Dayton SA1000.

Unfortunately I never used all three on the same sub, but I liked the Dayton SA1000 when I was using it with a ported driver that didn't need more than 75% of what it was rated for, and didnt need to go below 20hz. The Dayton amp did get fairly warm to the touch, but it was nice to not have to have regular connections (RCA/Binding Posts). I ended up selling it to a buddy running some Chase Home Theater 8 ohm subs and it has worked like a charm for him. That said, I'm not sure after having and using my Crowns I'd go back to that amp over the Crowns.

I haven't used the EP4000 long enough to comment on it v the Crown power wise, or even sound wise, so I will refrain from doing that for now.

Regarding fan noise, the EP4000s can be modded with a quieter 24v fan, which is what most people do. I however went with a different method and installed a step down converter in line that takes the 24v input and lets you set a lower output voltage. So in my case as long as the input is 2v HIGHER than what I have the output set to, my fan will run at a constant rate (which I set). The output is adjustable with a little pot on the front (both voltage and amperage) so you can dial it in to whats best for the fan you install. This lets you use any 12v fan you want (Im using the Noctua AF-8 FLX 80mm). I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links to outside forums, so just look for this username on AVS and you should find the thread I posted earlier this week.

I've been running the amp with the mod for about 2 day now (I know not a lot of time yet), and so far its super quiet (but not ANYWHERE NEAR as quiet as my Crowns) compared to what a 24v fan would have sounded like. And I've got the fan running full tilt at 2000 RPM for now (which is 14.5v and .6a as thats normally what a 12v fan runs at off a PC header), but I plan to dial it down after testing and measuring how it heats up during use. At a straight 12v the fan becomes inaudible even at 2 feet, whereas right now I can hear it (barely but its there) with no music playing from about 6 feet away, but its a gentle woosh and not annoying or grating.

Some of the reason the Crowns get away with little to no fan noise I attribute to the fact that I believe the EP4000 is Class A/B v the Crowns Class D, so the Crown doesnt need to disspate as much heat 24/7 meaning the fans dont need to move as much air, or go on as often as the EP4000.

Anyway Sonnie, those EP4000's are no doubt serving you well already. The only annoying thing for me is the dip switches on the back. Its so much nicer to work through the Crowns built in menu's to set things like the Highpass, Bridge/Stereo, etc.

 

[Sonnie]

Welcome to AV NIRVANA... glad you found us over here and hope you'll hang around with us a bit. We are still in the very early growing stages for sure.

That's an interesting method to get a super quite Noctua fan in the amps... I may have to try it. They are fairly quite, but I remember installing the Noctua's in my media server and I couldn't hear them even with my ear up next to them. They are dead silent.

Those dip's are no doubt aggravating, although I just set them and forget them from there.

No issues at all posting a link... we are way past that kind of stuff... if you know what I mean.

 

[EndersShadow]

Cool, and yes I will be around from time to time I'm sure. I remember you from your previous forum, and appreciated reading things you posted there, and the way you interacted with folks.

I've also met Matt Poes once or twice at a mutual friends house in Chicago for his audio meets, though I doubt he remembers me.

Anyway here is the link to my thread. Take a look and feel free to copy what I did, or do it better. My mod is not yet fully "finished" as I'm still a bit in the proof of concept phase, and plan to "pretty" it up later on, or hide the step down converter entirely inside.

**Edit** I can't take credit for the use of the step down, I read about it somewhere else, but I never saw anyone reference the did it, or take any pictures.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Cool, and yes I will be around from time to time I'm sure. I remember you from your previous forum, and appreciated reading things you posted there, and the way you interacted with folks.

I've also met Matt Poes once or twice at a mutual friends house in Chicago for his audio meets, though I doubt he remembers me.

Anyway here is the link to my thread. Take a look and feel free to copy what I did, or do it better. My mod is not yet fully "finished" as I'm still a bit in the proof of concept phase, and plan to "pretty" it up later on, or hide the step down converter entirely inside.

**Edit** I can't take credit for the use of the step down, I read about it somewhere else, but I never saw anyone reference the did it, or take any pictures.

Hey Dan welcome. Good to see you here.

We’ve met at Mikes GTG in the past and I imagine I’ll see you this year. Lots of fun stuff planned!

 

[tesseract]

Hey, EndersShadow! Glad to see you here. I am still using my dual Chase 18s and Dayton SA1000.

 

[EndersShadow]

Hey Dan welcome. Good to see you here.

We’ve met at Mikes GTG in the past and I imagine I’ll see you this year. Lots of fun stuff planned!

We have. I realized after I posted my comment may have come off as snide. I should have said "I've met Matt at a couple GTG's, and given the turnout, I wouldn't be surprised (or take offense) if he didnt remember me".

 

[EndersShadow]

Hey, EndersShadow! Glad to see you here. I am still using my dual Chase 18s and Dayton SA1000.

Yeah, I have two buddies in Evansville, IN that are using the SA1000. They scored chase test units off Ricci for stupid cheap. One has a ported Chase, the other a sealed. Both use the Eminence 18" driver and both can pound!

 

[GriffinO]

Bridging mono will decrease the damping factor by half and typically the impedance load capability. Say the amp does 2 ohm stereo, it will rise to 4 ohm minimum in mono.

If the damping is reduced by half are you better off running in stereo using one channel or does the power increase offset the loss of damping? I have a EP2500 from an old DIY and I was considering dusting it off and trying another DIY. While I am asking I also have a feedback destroyer 2496 IIRC but forgot why I bought it, its been a long time away from HT what are those used for again. I have a couple FI Audio Q18 I pulled out of their storage box I was considering trying in a Marty Cube but that rubber surround is ugly without a grill.

 

[tesseract]

I wouldn't worry too much about damping factor, most amps do fine, in that regard. Pay more attention to the load (impedance). Asking too much from a bridged amp can cause problems.