Magneplanar listening room with the Rooze setup.

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NBPK402
Marc Lombardi said:
Rooze is named by a guy names Rooze who first posted about it several years ago. It's basically variations on aiming the Magnepans away from the listener. You put them as far from the front wall as you can, and then point them at the side walls 45 degrees and tweak the distances and angles. Threads can be found on Planar Speaker Asylum with good commentary. There's another Magnepan variation called HK Limage, named for a guy named Li from Hong Kong. With that you have a big empty room, put the speakers around 40% from one wall and point them away, and sit BEHIND them!
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Oh, you know a funny story? About 6 months ago I watched a video where they talked abou tilting your speakers fronts upward while angling them outward. I told a friend about this and he tried it with his La Scalas, and he agreed it sounded better. I just never knew it had a name. lol
 
Marc Lombardi
Negatron said:
Oh, you know a funny story? About 6 months ago I watched a video where they talked abou tilting your speakers fronts upward while angling them outward. I told a friend about this and he tried it with his La Scalas, and he agreed it sounded better. I just never knew it had a name. lol
Click to expand...

Wow I had never heard of people doing this sort of thing with conventional speakers, only dipoles. It makes sense that it would work .... maybe even more sense. Imagine the complexity with a dipole, where the out-of-phase rear wave is now traveling a much longer distance across the room and reflected from front and side walls of the opposite corner. And the listener is essentially looking at the null of each speaker and listening to a coherent (albeit reflected) direct sound and a much more diffuse and delayed rear wave.

In tweaking this setup the challenge is that in some positions while the soundstage is large, the image is not stable or focused. The brain is sorting the paradox of all the arriving waves. I actually experienced having the instrument locations come into focus after a few seconds of concentrated listening. But ... when the position is correct, you get both the wide and deep soundstage AND relatively precise imaging. The imaging is not as pinpoint as a "dry" environment ... but then it would not be in a live performance either. Close-mic'ed studio recordings can sound a little strange, for example with instruments spread unnaturally wide across the soundstage. Depends on the mix. But recordings made in ambient space with fewer microphones - and especially if mixed in 5.1 with rear channels only for ambiance - sound very natural.
 
Grayson Dere
This is the first time I've heard of the Rooze setup. I'm intrigued! I also love all those skyline diffusers...it makes a great atmosphere for the room : )
 
Marc Lombardi
Sonnie said:
With DL is fine. I don't see too many somewhat flat responses like that, but I suppose with you angling the speakers at the side walls as you do it makes sense that it would probably work, as you are getting the direct sound.
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Changed measurement mic orientation, reran Dirac, then had to reverse polarity of Left, Right and Center and adjust crossover point of rears. Best response I've managed with the Rooze setup. 1/12 octave smoothing applied.
 

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t3t4
Just curious, why not build an anechoic room and be done with it? Ugly as sin no matter what you do with the fake plants, yeah?

Cheers!
 
Marc Lombardi
Todd Anderson said:
This is - by far - the most interesting room in our Showcase. Would love to spend some time in it!
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Todd .... it has been an ongoing experiment. And though I have some sense of aesthetics there is no need to compromise with regard to sound. If I get an idea I try it ... moving bass traps around, moving diffusors around, different EQ strategies and speaker placements. I had the room basically Live-End Dead-End with Tympani 1D's for 30 years. Past 8 years since I got the 3.7's I have been measuring and listening, and trying to at least have some correlation between what I measure and hear. In the end, the sound just gets better.

This week I'm trying a new experiment with a very small conventional box speaker. Powered monitors with 7" woofer and coaxial AMT tweeter, biamped with relatively low power. So far they sound pretty good in the room and measure very well too.
 
Todd Anderson
That's awesome - love the passion and the curiosity, and the willingness to keep altering and experimenting! Thanks so much for sharing images of the space. Looks like you're rocking' a Panny Plasma to boot! Great pairing for great sound!
 
t3t4
Marc Lombardi said:
You're funny T ... there are no plants - fake or otherwise :cool:
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Lol, nah I meant fake plants metaphorically, like dressing up a pig.... Although now that I'm thinking about it, I guess we all kind of dress a pig in one way or another. I don't have a home theater room, I have a living room instead. If I had a spare room that I could dedicate to just music and movie enjoyment, I would poor man's sound proof the it with floor to ceiling shag carpet. Ugly as sin (depending on color), but still cheap and very effective for a dirt simple anechoic chamber!

I was just wondering out loud, why spend the time and money on some of those panels that do so little when carpet is easier, cheaper and more effective all around. Please don't misunderstand me here, panels can do better, no argument.... I just see a $500.00 solution where others might see the need for a $5k solution for the same problem with same or similar outcome. It's gonna be ugly no matter what, so I'd spend as little as possible to dress this pig, with fake flowers. Know what I mean?

Cheers!
 
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Marc Lombardi
Todd Anderson said:
That's awesome - love the passion and the curiosity, and the willingness to keep altering and experimenting! Thanks so much for sharing images of the space. Looks like you're rocking' a Panny Plasma to boot! Great pairing for great sound!
Click to expand...

Yes an 11 year old 58"! When it dies - and since I have more room now due to the Rooze setup - I figure I drop in a 75-77"
 
Marc Lombardi
t3t4 said:
Lol, nah I meant fake plants metaphorically, like dressing up a pig.... Although now that I'm thinking about it, I guess we all kind of dress a pig in one way or another. I don't have a home theater room, I have a living room instead. If I had a spare room that I could dedicate to just music and movie enjoyment, I would poor man's sound proof the hell out of it with floor to ceiling shag carpet. Ugly as sin (depending on color), but still cheap and very effective for a dirt simple anechoic chamber!

I was just wondering out loud, why spend the time and money on some of those panels that do so little when carpet is easier, cheaper and more effective all around. Please don't misunderstand me here, panels can do better, no argument.... I just see a $500.00 solution where others might see the need for a $5k solution for the same problem with same or similar outcome. It's gonna be ugly no matter what, so I'd spend as little as possible to dress this pig, with fake flowers. Know what I mean?

Cheers!
Click to expand...

Well too much to get into here T. But my room absorbs as much as possible under 200Hz, and above 500Hz it's diffusion ... carpet does neither irrespective of price. It is not anechoic, nor is that the goal. My goal is to tame room resonances below the Schroeder frequency, and to use diffusion effectively to optimize the sound of the dipole speakers as well as movie and music surround sound. I augment with Dirac room correction to smooth it all out. We work, listen to music, watch TV ... and drink the odd sip of expensive Irish whiskey ... all in the same room :-)
 
J
Marc Lombardi said:
Wow I had never heard of people doing this sort of thing with conventional speakers, only dipoles. It makes sense that it would work .... maybe even more sense. Imagine the complexity with a dipole, where the out-of-phase rear wave is now traveling a much longer distance across the room and reflected from front and side walls of the opposite corner. And the listener is essentially looking at the null of each speaker and listening to a coherent (albeit reflected) direct sound and a much more diffuse and delayed rear wave.

In tweaking this setup the challenge is that in some positions while the soundstage is large, the image is not stable or focused. The brain is sorting the paradox of all the arriving waves. I actually experienced having the instrument locations come into focus after a few seconds of concentrated listening. But ... when the position is correct, you get both the wide and deep soundstage AND relatively precise imaging. The imaging is not as pinpoint as a "dry" environment ... but then it would not be in a live performance either. Close-mic'ed studio recordings can sound a little strange, for example with instruments spread unnaturally wide across the soundstage. Depends on the mix. But recordings made in ambient space with fewer microphones - and especially if mixed in 5.1 with rear channels only for ambiance - sound very natural.
Click to expand...
Amazing room!

Your experience with Rooze is very much like mine.

For me, the amazing thing about Rooze was that it transported me to the original acoustical environment in a way that no other setup ever has. But I had the same issues with image placement that you did.
 
J
t3t4 said:
Lol, nah I meant fake plants metaphorically, like dressing up a pig.... Although now that I'm thinking about it, I guess we all kind of dress a pig in one way or another. I don't have a home theater room, I have a living room instead. If I had a spare room that I could dedicate to just music and movie enjoyment, I would poor man's sound proof the hell out of it with floor to ceiling shag carpet. Ugly as sin (depending on color), but still cheap and very effective for a dirt simple anechoic chamber!

I was just wondering out loud, why spend the time and money on some of those panels that do so little when carpet is easier, cheaper and more effective all around. Please don't misunderstand me here, panels can do better, no argument.... I just see a $500.00 solution where others might see the need for a $5k solution for the same problem with same or similar outcome. It's gonna be ugly no matter what, so I'd spend as little as possible to dress this pig, with fake flowers. Know what I mean?

Cheers!
Click to expand...
FWIW, carpet just makes the room sound dead. And it's too thin to absorb at lower frequencies, so it attenuates the highs as well.

Diffusion makes a room acoustically larger, without gobbling up the highs or making it sound dead. One way to think of it is that it transforms the room reflections into reverberation, as you would get in a larger studio or hall. Ugly, to be sure, but it pays off. Wendell Diller, Magnepan's marketing director, says that when he took the 30.7's on the North American tour, the best rooms were the ones with lots of diffusion, and I've heard that from others as well, e.g., John Marks.
 
Marc Lombardi
josh358 said:
Amazing room!

Your experience with Rooze is very much like mine.

For me, the amazing thing about Rooze was that it transported me to the original acoustical environment in a way that no other setup ever has. But I had the same issues with image placement that you did.
Click to expand...

And thanks again Josh for your guidance during my evolution of the Rooze ..... validating that I was not losing my mind :-)
 
t3t4
josh358 said:
FWIW, carpet just makes the room sound dead. And it's too thin to absorb at lower frequencies, so it attenuates the highs as well.

Diffusion makes a room acoustically larger, without gobbling up the highs or making it sound dead.
Click to expand...

You almost sound as if you've lived it, I know I have, and my experience was quite different from your description. Picture a large open basement, all concrete as far as the eye can see with open floor joists above. Now picture 5 band members with live gear playing in said space,,,,,, it's echo and reverb city I'm here to tell ya! I said "poor man's sound proof", and so we did, with carpet!

I assure you, the high, higher and highest highs were no trouble at all! Those guitars, high hat and snares can still make your ears bleed, but that annoying echo - echo -- echo --- echo with reverb was perceptively gone. Sound panels were in order of thousands of dollars, thick shaggy like carpet,,,, about 500 bucks for the "same or similar" end result. Now here's the secret to how and why it works so well: Don't hang the carpet tight up against a wall, literally hang it from the ceiling with about a 6" gap from back of carpet to block/concrete wall. Oh yes it does suck the life out of bass, I kinda preferred the bass before the sound treatment just cause I'm that guy I suppose..... But one more time in case some have missed it again: Adding carpet from floor to ceiling is a very effective "poor man's sound proofing" while being "dirt simple" and "very cost effective"!

It sounds as though many here love to spend excessive amounts of time and money on an otherwise basic problem.!? If that's your thing then have at it, really, I enjoy reading all about it. I'm just more of a simple answer is best / practical solution always kind of guy. I'd rather just get in there and fix what is annoying and then get on with the rest of my short life. But I have nothing but respect for those of you takin it to the max!

Oh, and that basement I was talking about, we chose a medium Grey color carpet all around (mostly because it was cheaper) and to be honest, it looked pretty good! Aside from the open floor joists, it looked and felt like a movie theater.

Cheers!
 
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J
t3t4 said:
You almost sound as if you've lived it, I know I have, and my experience was quite different from your description. Picture a large open basement, all concrete as far as the eye can see with open floor joists above. Now picture 5 band members with live gear playing in said space,,,,,, it's echo and reverb city I'm here to tell ya! I said "poor man's sound proof", and so we did, with carpet!

I assure you, the high, higher and highest highs were no trouble at all! Those guitars, high hat and snares can still make your ears bleed, but that annoying echo - echo -- echo --- echo with reverb was perceptively gone. Sound panels were in order of thousands of dollars, thick shaggy like carpet,,,, about 500 bucks for the "same or similar" end result. Now here's the secret to how and why it works so well: Don't hang the carpet tight up against a wall, literally hang it from the ceiling with about a 6" gap from back of carpet to block/concrete wall. Oh yes it does suck the life out of bass, I kinda preferred the bass before the sound treatment just cause I'm that guy I suppose..... But one more time in case some have missed it again: Adding carpet from floor to ceiling is a very effective "poor man's sound proofing" while being "dirt simple" and "very cost effective"!

It sounds as though many here love to spend excessive amounts of time and money on an otherwise basic problem.!? If that's your thing then have at it, really, I enjoy reading all about it. I'm just more of a simple answer is best / practical solution always kind of guy. I'd rather just get in there and fix what is annoying and then get on with the rest of my short life. But I have nothing but respect for those of you takin it to the max!

Oh, and that basement I was talking about, we chose a medium Grey color carpet all around (mostly because it was cheaper) and to be honest, it looked pretty good! Aside from the open floor joists, it looked and felt like a movie theater.

Cheers!
Click to expand...
Heavy carpet out from the wall actually isn't a bad strategy. Taking it off the wall moves it out from the pressure zone, extending the absorption down into the bass. Heavy curtains can be used for this.

For professional broadband sound absorption on the cheap, just get some Owings Corning fiberglass insulation batts (or rockwool batts, same thing) and cover in burlap.

In all cases, though, diffusion and absorption should be used in proportion to provide the desired reverberation time (note that reverberation is very different from echo!).
 
t3t4
josh358 said:
Heavy carpet out from the wall actually isn't a bad strategy. Taking it off the wall moves it out from the pressure zone, extending the absorption down into the bass. Heavy curtains can be used for this.

For professional broadband sound absorption on the cheap, just get some Owings Corning fiberglass insulation batts (or rockwool batts, same thing) and cover in burlap.

In all cases, though, diffusion and absorption should be used in proportion to provide the desired reverberation time (note that reverberation is very different from echo!).
Click to expand...

Lol, I know it works, I'm just glad we're finally on the same page here. Panels can do better for specific applications (never an argument from me), but my dirt simple methodology is to fix a general/basic problem that all open rooms/space suffer from, that is echo and reverb! One of these years I will have my own basement (rather than a crawl space) to do whatever the heck I please, but until then, I'm happy enough with what I've got. Just as I hope the rest of you are happy with your choices!

Cheers!
 

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