Would a DAC be worth it? Understanding the purpose of a DAC

[Sonnie]

I've seen a lot about DAC's over many years. I remember they use to be extremely expensive and only available to the uber high-end market. Now they seem to be almost a dime a dozen, and really high-end DAC's included in AVR's and UDP's.

I've been considering a DAC that has a USB input and does streaming (just in case I decide to stream Tidal one day). I mainly decode all of my music to a USB thumb drive and listen via my OPPO 205, which is fine, but the 205 doesn't offer streaming.

There are DAC's that support upconverting all inputs to DSD 512 or PCM 768k... and support full MQA decoding. Of course I have no idea if these features are really worth it or not... as personally I'd probably not hear a difference, but it might work on me psychologically... maybe I can convince myself I'm hearing a difference.

But is not the primary benefit of a DAC to convert audio from digital to analog?

The problem I see is I would need to bypass my NAD AVR, since it will only output in the digital domain... it is not analog. If I am going to use a DAC, then I would have to integrate the DAC into my amps directly... so I would need a DAC preamp, but then I'd lose my subwoofer capabiliity... and the use of Dirac Live.

I don't really see a way to use a DAC and get any full benefit out of it along with the full benefit of the rest of my system. What am I overlooking?

 

[Grayson Dere]

I've seen a lot about DAC's over many years. I remember they use to be extremely expensive and only available to the uber high-end market. Now they seem to be almost a dime a dozen, and really high-end DAC's included in AVR's and UDP's.

I've been considering a DAC that has a USB input and does streaming (just in case I decide to stream Tidal one day). I mainly decode all of my music to a USB thumb drive and listen via my OPPO 205, which is fine, but the 205 doesn't offer streaming.

There are DAC's that support upconverting all inputs to DSD 512 or PCM 768k... and support full MQA decoding. Of course I have no idea if these features are really worth it or not... as personally I'd probably not hear a difference, but it might work on me psychologically... maybe I can convince myself I'm hearing a difference.

But is not the primary benefit of a DAC to convert audio from digital to analog?

The problem I see is I would need to bypass my NAD AVR, since it will only output in the digital domain... it is not analog. If I am going to use a DAC, then I would have to integrate the DAC into my amps directly... so I would need a DAC preamp, but then I'd lose my subwoofer capabiliity... and the use of Dirac Live.

I don't really see a way to use a DAC and get any full benefit out of it along with the full benefit of the rest of my system. What am I overlooking?

Hi Sonnie,

Does your NAD AVR offer 'AUX RCA Input for R+L Channels?' Assuming you want to listen to 2-channel music?

Currently I have my DAC setup as: MacBook Pro -> DAC (USB input) -> DAC Line Level Out -> AVR AUX Input R+L ch.

I haven't tried the toslink option on my DAC but perhaps that would work in your case, too?

I'd like to add, the DAC Line Level Out for my DAC is a 3.5mm female connector type where I have an Audioquest R+L RCA interconnect adapter attached to be able to connect to the AVR AUX IN.

 

[Grayson Dere]

Hi Sonnie,

Does your NAD AVR offer 'AUX RCA Input for R+L Channels?' Assuming you want to listen to 2-channel music?

Currently I have my DAC setup as: MacBook Pro -> DAC (USB input) -> DAC Line Level Out -> AVR AUX Input R+L ch.

I haven't tried the toslink option on my DAC but perhaps that would work in your case, too?

I'd like to add, the DAC Line Level Out for my DAC is a 3.5mm female connector type where I have an Audioquest R+L RCA interconnect adapter attached to be able to connect to the AVR AUX IN.

Sorry, I just realized you're interested not just in a DAC but a DAC that also streams music.

Something like this?

https://www.linn.co.uk/sources/network-music-players/akurate

Features:

• Features Katalyst DAC Architecture
• Streams virtually any digital source over a standard network
• Supports formats up to 24-bit 192 kHz
• Space Optimisation built-in
• Integrates seamlessly with Tidal & Qobuz lossless streaming services
• 14 digital & analogue inputs including HDMI 2.0 connections (4K compatible)
• Surround Sound compatible
• Front panel headphone output and AUX input
• Analogue outputs for connection to pre- or power amps
• Exakt Link for connection to Linn Exaktbox or integrated speakers
• Built-in MC/MM phono stage for connecting a turntable

 

[Sonnie]

That one might work... or this one: http://www.pureaudiolab.com/

The only thing with running it thru the NAD is the volume control is digital, so there is no analog throughput, nor can I process with Dirac Live and maintain a pure analog signal, so the benefit of the DAC is lost, if I am understanding it correctly.

I don't think I could give up my Dirac Live, as it will have much more impact on the sound than any DAC could possibly have.

 

[ddude003]

Hi Sonnie,

Your "My System" shows you have a Yamaha CXA5100 Pre/Pro which has:
- Professional digital-to-analog conversion (ESS SABRE™ Ultra DAC ES9016S) for all channels
- Fully loaded with Wi-Fi®, Bluetooth, AirPlay® and Spotify Connect
- Stream Pandora®, Spotify, Napster, SiriusXM Internet Radio, TIDAL, Deezer and thousands of free internet radio stations
- DSD 2.8 MHz / 5.6 MHz, FLAC / WAV / AIFF 192 kHz / 24-bit, Apple® Lossless 96 kHz / 24-bit playback

Seems like you already have a pretty nice streamer and DAC...

Next jump up from that would be to a FPGA system like Chord Qutest or better or PS Audio DirectStream Junior or better... Maybe MyTek Brooklyn or a Denafrips Terminator...

A BlueSound Streamer with a better stand alone DAC might work too...

Good luck in your quest for Audio Nirvana ;^)

 

[JStewart]

I've been considering a DAC that has a USB input and does streaming (just in case I decide to stream Tidal one day). I mainly decode all of my music to a USB thumb drive and listen via my OPPO 205, which is fine, but the 205 doesn't offer streaming.

Sonnie, have you tried streaming your music files or Tidal (or other) using BlueSound built into the NAD T758v3 and are looking for something with better sound quality?

 

[Sonnie]

I didn't realize I had not updated My System, but I no longer have the Yamaha, but instead have the NAD T758 AVR.

But I'm not fully understanding how a DAC inside of a digital AVR can be of any benefit, if the output is ultimately digital.

Sonnie, have you tried streaming your music files or Tidal (or other) using BlueSound built into the NAD T758v3 and are looking for something with better sound quality?

Exactly... hoping to find better quality, although I may be chasing after the wind.

Can anyone elaborate on the benefit and purpose of the DAC and how it integrates with an AVR that is digital?

 

[Grayson Dere]

"Can anyone elaborate on the benefit and purpose of the DAC and how it integrates with an AVR that is digital?"

The only reason I can see of using a third party DAC is to ultimately bypass the internal DAC of the AVR for a different sound signature/character. Also, a 3rd party DAC may be able to decode higher bitstreams your AVR might not be capable of.

The 'CHORD Hugo TT 2' can handle PCM up to 768kHz and also DSD 512 playback.

Please forgive me if I didn't fully understand your question : )

 

[Sonnie]

Still trying to understand the purpose of the DAC. Supposedly it converts the digital signal to analog, but does it remain analog thru the AVR to the amps... or do I have to go directly to the amp and bypass the AVR. In which case, if the AVR can't pass the analog signal, what would be the purpose of an internal DAC... if it's unable to pass the analog signal and gets converted back to digital before it leaves the amp.

And in the case of Dirac Live, which is digital processing, can the DAC have any effect on the signal if Dirac Live is used?

 

[Matthew J Poes]

I've seen a lot about DAC's over many years. I remember they use to be extremely expensive and only available to the uber high-end market. Now they seem to be almost a dime a dozen, and really high-end DAC's included in AVR's and UDP's.

I've been considering a DAC that has a USB input and does streaming (just in case I decide to stream Tidal one day). I mainly decode all of my music to a USB thumb drive and listen via my OPPO 205, which is fine, but the 205 doesn't offer streaming.

There are DAC's that support upconverting all inputs to DSD 512 or PCM 768k... and support full MQA decoding. Of course I have no idea if these features are really worth it or not... as personally I'd probably not hear a difference, but it might work on me psychologically... maybe I can convince myself I'm hearing a difference.

But is not the primary benefit of a DAC to convert audio from digital to analog?

The problem I see is I would need to bypass my NAD AVR, since it will only output in the digital domain... it is not analog. If I am going to use a DAC, then I would have to integrate the DAC into my amps directly... so I would need a DAC preamp, but then I'd lose my subwoofer capabiliity... and the use of Dirac Live.

I don't really see a way to use a DAC and get any full benefit out of it along with the full benefit of the rest of my system. What am I overlooking?

I don’t think you are missing much. It’s a complicated problem. How to get the benefits of the best digital to analog converters and best analog circuits while still having good ability to setup. Obviously any differences here will be swamped by the differences in speakers and optimal setup of the room, speakers, and subwoofers.

One solution you might try is to use a multichannel DAC such as a high end USB audio interface and your laptop or computer as the source and signal processor. For example, I have a MOTU 828x and I can use that as an 8 channel dac with volume control. It can directly interface with my amps and subs. The software for mixing on it allows application of filters to the subs, though my subs also have built in DSP so it isn’t needed. I can also do multichannel this way for things like multichannel music. It isn’t useful for movies because of an inability to decode the movie soundtrack and run it through the mixer. The MOTU uses DACs that are much better than those in any receiver and the analogue circuit is far quieter with wider bandwidth. A loopback test showed really clean performance with close to 130dB of dynamic range and distortion so low REW doesn’t even display it properly and i had to sue other software.

One way I’ve tested this is by then running the 8 channel output of the dac through the receivers 7.1 input in direct mode. This keeps the receiver in an analogue only mode and limits the degradation. You may recall from my review of the Outlaw processor, that I doubt my receivers 7.1 pass through in direct mode to be transparent. The only degradation I found was in channel separation.

 

[Sonnie]

Similar to a catch 22.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Similar to a catch 22.

Yeah and I think that upgrading the Dac to compromise the setup isn’t worth it. That has to be maintained. Obviously the best solution Is a highly flexible processor with high end dacs and analogue stages built in. The NAD is no slouch, but if you wanted something comparable to the MOTU, you would have to go to their Master series or some other premium processor.

 

[AudiocRaver]

Sonnie, as far as streaming is concerned, remember that BluOS provides lossless streaming for the NAD. Not sure that losing the Dirac Live would be worth it to get a premium dac into the picture.

 

[Matthew J Poes]

Sonnie, as far as streaming is concerned, remember that BluOS provides lossless streaming for the NAD. Not sure that losing the Dirac Live would be worth it to get a premium dac into the picture.

Yup!

This is what I was getting at earlier. Frequently you have to give up important aspects of the setup optimization just to get a better dac. What sound advantage does the dac offer that are more significant than the setup optimization. Trying to be objective about all this, a better dac would offer lower noise and greater dynamic range (which realsticly the speakers/amps themselves couldn’t take advantage of), a more extender frequency response possibly, and lower distortion. Given the current state of DACs, these are small improvements relative to response curve, speaker quality, and bass optimization.

 

[Sonnie]

Yeah... I know... setup is KING as far as I am concerned.

A external DAC just sounds like it would be cool to have... lol... but not necessarily feasible in my situation of preferences.

 

[ddude003]

After having a look at your current "My System" I am a bit puzzled about the AVR instead of a AV Preamp/Processor... You have a pair of Mono Block Amps and a 7 Channel Amplifier, along with the Oppo 205, which places you clearly into the "AV Separates" while the AVR is more of an Integrated Solution... And now you are looking to try a Separate DAC and quite possibly a Streaming solution... I would be looking for a nice AV Preamp first, with a Digital Out as well as In... Maybe the next step up in the NAD product line has such a kit...

On the other hand, there is no reason you could not feed a separate DAC from another digital streaming source, like a laptop, and plug the analogue OUT from the DAC into an auxiliary analogue IN on your current AVR...

 

[Matthew J Poes]

After having a look at your current "My System" I am a bit puzzled about the AVR instead of a AV Preamp/Processor... You have a pair of Mono Block Amps and a 7 Channel Amplifier, along with the Oppo 205, which places you clearly into the "AV Separates" while the AVR is more of an Integrated Solution... And now you are looking to try a Separate DAC and quite possibly a Streaming solution... I would be looking for a nice AV Preamp first, with a Digital Out as well as In... Maybe the next step up in the NAD product line has such a kit...

On the other hand, there is no reason you could not feed a separate DAC from another digital streaming source, like a laptop, and plug the analogue OUT from the DAC into an auxiliary analogue IN on your current AVR...

He got it because it was such a good deal. The preamp processor with Dirac and Atmos hasn’t come out yet from NAD.

It’s my impression Sonnie wants to use a high end Dac to see if he is missing anything. To do that kind of comparison justice you can’t run through the receiver because it would double convert. The resolution and noise would still be limited by the receiver.

 

[ddude003]

He got it because it was such a good deal. The preamp processor with Dirac and Atmos hasn’t come out yet from NAD.

It’s my impression Sonnie wants to use a high end Dac to see if he is missing anything. To do that kind of comparison justice you can’t run through the receiver because it would double convert. The resolution and noise would still be limited by the receiver.

Maybe not such a "good deal" if it does not do all that is wanted like a Digital OUT... And wondering what kind of PreAmp would take an Analogue IN and convert it to Digital just to turn it back into an Analogue Pre OUT... Because Dirac? I would hope it would have a "Pure Thru" mode of come kind that would not goof with an Analogue Signal other than Volume (attenuation)... Or are you thinking because Class D...

 

[Sonnie]

Correct... I purchased the 758 because it was one of the very few units actually available that could serve as a processor and includes Dirac Live, which is very important to me for the best sound stage, imaging and bass response.

I am considering the new NAD M17v2 ... but I wasn't really wanting to spend quite that much. However, it does include Dirac. I'm gonna think on it for a while.

 

[jeeriko]

Maybe not such a "good deal" if it does not do all that is wanted like a Digital OUT... And wondering what kind of PreAmp would take an Analogue IN and convert it to Digital just to turn it back into an Analogue Pre OUT... Because Dirac? I would hope it would have a "Pure Thru" mode of come kind that would not goof with an Analogue Signal other than Volume (attenuation)... Or are you thinking because Class D...

ANALOG
If the audio input is an analog signal, the following are the surround modes
the input can be defaulted - Dolby Surround, NEO: 6 Cinema, NEO: 6 Music,
EARS, Enhanced Stereo, Analog Bypass and None.
and this
ANALOG BYPASS (APPLICABLE ONLY WHEN THE SOURCE
SELECTED IS 7.1 CHANNEL INPUT - DEFAULTED TO SOURCE 7)
All analog signals remain in the analog domain without analog-to-digital
conversions. At Analog Bypass, the DSP circuitry is bypassed but full tone
control functions remain. “Bass management” or Speaker settings are also
not in effect as these are DSP functions.
and there is this
DIRECT
The analog or digital sources are automatically played in their native
formats. All the source’s audio channels are reproduced directly. This
mode recreates the original sound most faithfully thereby producing
outstandingly high quality audio.

 

[ddude003]

Thank you jeeriko... So, it looks like it is possible to attach the Stereo Analogue Output from an External Stereo DAC to a Stereo Analogue Input on the NAD758 and get Direct Analogue Thru out of the preamp stage which Sonnie could then feed his Monoblocks with (maybe already does)...

It is too bad that A/V kit manufactures do not have an External DAC Loop that would allow a Digital Out from the AVR or a Pre/Pro and an Analogue In back to the line stage Pre, basically bypassing the internal DAC...

 

[Sonnie]

My problem is giving up Dirac Live, which I'd have to do if I went direct analog. Pure DAC can't give me what Dirac Live does to improve sound stage and imaging.

 

[Tony V.]

Correct me if I am wrong but does the DAC not convert the signal to analog before the amps as a speaker output is technically analog. I thought high end receivers use dedicated DACs for each channel where some lower end ones share specially designed single DACs that do more than one channel?

 

[Sonnie]

I'm not sure how it all works... how it all integrates, etc. Maybe someone can explain in more detail.

I don't really understand how a DAC can be of any benefit in a processor that processes the signal digitally. What's the purpose of having mid or high-end DAC's in the OPPO or NAD M17 or the other products mentioned?

 

[Tony V.]

I'm going out on a limb here but I thought the DAC in a cd or other video media player would be used if you were to use the analog outputs hence the direct analog inputs on many higher end receivers, this bypasses any processing done in the receiver and that signal goes directly to the amps