Very interesting vinyl playback article regarding its fidelity

Grayson Dere

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This is a fascinating article regarding LP playback sound fidelity by Jim Smith, author of, "Get Better Sound."

https://www.psaudio.com/article/lp-playback-is-it-really-reference-quality/

"No turntable – at any price – can bridge the inherent gap between the master tape and the mastered LP. It is HUGE – and that comparison assumes the use of a correctly set-up turntable/phono-stage rig. " - Jim Smith

And I thought listening to vinyl was the closest medium to the master tapes. Maybe I was wrong... : P
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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Well, the opening statement pretty much lays out what the problem is:

Is it truly superior if it has not one, but two iterations of eq; an extra gain stage; a signal-to-noise ratio that is definitely not so superior; inner-groove distortion; variable performance; and it is especially prone to errors in set-up?

Master tapes are laden with none of that. Regarding S/N specifically, master tapes recorded at 30 ips had background noise levels far lower than any popular consumer medium of the day (factory cassettes , reel-to-reel tapes, sand LPs).

I began my interest in audio as a teen in the mid 1970s. Once I acquired some decent entry-level equipment, it was obvious that the cassette tapes I’d been buying didn’t sound nearly as good as the LP’s I heard at the hi-fi store I briefly worked at.

However, once I got a turntable and began acquiring some records, the limitations of the medium were evident early on. Namely, no matter how carefully I handled the records and “Discwashed” them before each playing, virtually every time I played a record I would notice a new click or pop.

The solution was to get a nice (read expensive) 3-head cassette deck with a variable bias control, which permitted recordings virtually indistinguishable from the original. So I began recording my LPs to cassette after only 1-2 plays.

Needless to say, it was a time consuming process that people can’t appreciate now. Or the expense. I paid I think $400 for my first 3-head cassette deck in the early ’80s, which the equivalent of a bit over $1000 today. And that was on clearance; it wasn’t unusual for good 3-head decks to sell for $600 or more back then.

The first time I played a CD and listened through headphones, it was a revelation to hear a song fade to inky blackness with no background noise of any kind.

So to me, a CD is the closest thing to an original master tape.

Regards,
Wayne
 

Grayson Dere

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Thanks for your thoughts, Wayne! It's great to have read your opinions on vinyl limitations in sound quality...you have spent a lot time and money
trying to get as much as you can out of the medium.

When you recorded vinyl to a 3-head cassette deck, was it plug-n-play like how today USB can be used to record vinyl to digital formats? I actually didn't even know people recorded vinyl to cassette : )

Also, was the variable bias control used to get rid of the clicks and pops?
 

MeJ

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I'm a former pro recording studio owner (very small one - you'd never have heard of! :), musician, engineer and producer (ditto, neither famous nor I hope infamous).

The difference between what we would send out to mastering and the awful floppy vinyl approximation we got back was only bridged by the first CD - even with lousy 12-bit companding DACs it beat vinyl hollow.

Vinyl can sound good - a new good pressing (rare in itself) with a good deck, arm, and cartridge (like my Ortofon MC) could produce involving music playback. But still, a poor approximation to the master, which itself was a poor approximation to the mix. We used what we had and made it as good as we could.

Pressing to vinyl is why everyone believes bass is mono. It's not. But on vinyl it is -- as stereo info at bass would make the cutting head cut through the master, so it was all filtered to mono below around 70 HZ (depending on material).

Then they would add extra unwanted compression.

The pre-emphasis needed to reduce the awful hiss from vinyl granularity (earlier materials worse) was almost never completely compensated by anything but the best pre-amp design (not the most expensive - the best).

Even looking at an album -- that is, taking it out of the sleeve -- would cause micro-scratches.

Playing it once flattened out all the fine detail in the groove unless you used a very high end elliptical stylus with perfect tracking force. And even then, after ten plays some high end was gone.

It was impossible to get rid of bad scratches (Ethan published a scratch suppressor which worked on minor issues, as did various others).

Thank the all-high that vinyl is dead. I don't understand why people use it at all, except for recovering lost or rare material to digital.

I now have on my desktop the equivalent to a half million (choose your currency unit) studio's worth of excellent recording, composing and modification plugins. Amazing. Thank the developers, I do!


Also, was the variable bias control used to get rid of the clicks and pops?

I have an excellent late Pioneer cassette deck which with good tape was bearable. It has full computer-controlled bias adjustment. I'll have to get new drive belts for it one day.

Adjusting the bias is needed to get the cassette tape used into its least-non-linear area of response. Every manufacturer made different tape, with different materials (metal best but lasted least) and it needed the bias set optimally. Even successive batches of the same tape varied.

At 1/4", 1/2", 1" 2" inch level the same happened. We tried to buy a large batch of the same manufacture date and would set up all the recorders for it. Would do it all again for the next batch.

Yep, I am a Proud Digital man :)

MeJ
 

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Interesting Wayne, I did the same ... Nakamichi 700II and DBX noise reduction. Indistinguishable from the original LP. I still have about 100 of those cassettes, though the 700II has long since stopped working. I have a Nakamichi BX-100 that plays them pretty well with the Nak proprietary EQ. And, I made many live recordings when I played in bands in the 70's and 80's using this setup and Nakamichi mics. Excellent fidelity and dead quiet.

I wish the general public would realize, tape has bandwidth to the limits of our hearing but only 60-70db dynamic range. A CD has 93db dynamic range. Hi-res audio recorded 96KHz/24bit 141db. And tape goes through at least two generations before the vinyl master. And the vinyl master has to have highs and lows rolled off so as not to upset the cutting lathe ... and bass summed to mono below 200Hz so a stylus can track it without being flung from the groove. It's Physics.
 

John Whittaker

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Having done a significant amount of tape recording (a long time ago) it is interesting now to read other's views on 'how it was.'
With all the discussion of bias settings and such, you don't much hear talk about how recording level, especially with cassettes, affected frequency response.

Ever hear of "Two-Pass Recording"? First pass is used to discover (find) the peak output of the source, the second pass for actual recording at the level set to ensure no peak clipping (or squashing as was the case). Given the high frequency roll off of cassettes as 0VU level is approached, in the good old days, one judiciously lowered the recording level (sacrificing S/N) to record the higher frequencies as accurately as the medium allowed.

Today I use the "RME ADI-2 Pro FS" ADC/DAC as my recorder ,.. and I still use two-pass recording methodology to assure of not clipping peaks from the source. I'm in process of setting up my new SoundSmith "Sussurro" cartridge for a final go round (I'm 73) of vinyl transfer to DSD digital form. Is there any doubt that different phono cartridges sound 'different'? I do have a full-blown vacuum wash and ultrasonic cleaner setup. Nowadays I think of vinyl playing as a laboratory process ... the cleaning can get tedious. Hence my focus on needle drops of my favorite new and old albums. Recording is tedious!

New and old vinyl (the new is rather expensive stuff) can and does sound amazing. The expensive vinyl is generally impeccable when it comes to tics and pops. But as is said: 90% of everything is crap - and - there's no such thing as a free lunch.

John
Acoustic Line Source Research
 

Marc Lombardi

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Yes, John ... even with my Nakamichi I kept levels below clipping and the DBX did a nice job of pushing the noise floor lower than Dolby would. Most of my recordings were live with me playing drums so i had only one pass and had no more than a sound check and looking over my shoulder to set levels.
 

Grayson Dere

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Thank you all for providing insight into the recording processes...something I have absolutely ZERO experience with : )
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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you have spent a lot time and money trying to get as much as you can out of the [LP] medium.
Actually, I don’t think I was so much trying to get all I could out of the medium, as I was just trying to get out of the medium! That will make sense shortly.

When you recorded vinyl to a 3-head cassette deck, was it plug-n-play like how today USB can be used to record vinyl to digital formats?
Plug and play – there is no such thing in the analog world! For starters, properly mounting and setting up a cartridge on the tone arm of a turntable – that was decidedly NOT a “plug and play” exercise. I’m sure you can find some Youtube videos about that.

It's great to have read your opinions on vinyl limitations in sound quality.
I didn’t mean to imply that the LP had sound quality issues! Despite the conditions iterated at the front off the article you linked, LPs indeed sounded excellent. The main problem was the background noise – which came from the needle (stylus) physically moving through the grooves, and of course from ticks and pops. Fortunately most popular music is at a high enough level for all that not to be heard, but nevertheless it was audible in fade-outs and quiet passages.

Regarding background noise from the physical tracking of the stylus, it seems at least some of that was inherent to the record-making process, or maybe the quality of the vinyl itself. I remember buying a couple of albums from a label that touted how quiet their records were compared to the norm. Those records were indeed significantly quieter than most everything else I had ever bought. I don’t know enough about it all to say how they accomplished that.

Regarding the ticks and pops, I once read what happens when the stylus encountered a speck of dust. A cartridge typically tracked at only 1 gram or so (part of that set-up thing I mentioned), but that weight focused at the tiny point of the needle had the equivalent force of something like 1 ton. So a speck of dust was literally ground into the record groove by the weight of the stylus. And on the next playback, you’d hear a tick or pop at that location. That’s why it was critical to clean the records before each playing, but (as I noted) I found even that wasn’t enough. Maybe I needed something more sophisticated than the Discwasher (look it up!).

Another potential issue, if you had your turntable located too close to a speaker and turned the system up too loud, you could literally get feedback (like you’ve heard from mics at live performances, although typically at a lower frequency).

Turns out the whole system could actually function as a transducer, like a microphone! Based on another article I read (there were lots of great articles from the audio publications on the finer points of turntables that are lost to time), I tried this little experiment. I turned on my turntable, put it in neutral, and set the tone arm down on the record. (So the stylus was sitting on the record, but the platter was not spinning). I activated one of my cassette decks to record signal from the turntable. With my second cassette deck, I played a tape with music at a normal listening volume (fairly loud, but not ear-splitting). After I stopped everything and played back the recording from the first cassette deck, you could actually hear the music! Granted, it wasn’t very clear or distinct, more like something being played from another room, but nevertheless there it was.

It was a small leap from that experiment to figure that this low-level feedback was always present anytime you played a record at a respectable volume, slightly delayed from the original signal. Only instead of feeding to a tape recording it would be feeding right out to (and through) the speakers. Sure, normally it would be masked by the primary signal, but it seemed to me that could only serve to muddy-up the sound to a certain degree, and the whole thing really bugged me.

Regards,
Wayne
 

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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actually didn't even know people recorded vinyl to cassette : )

All that – the clicks, the pops, the microphonics – convince me that it was best to get out of the LP medium. Enter the cassette tape. I don’t think I was unusual in that regard – many people recorded their LPs to cassette merely for the purpose of playback in their cars.

But cassette wasn’t a “plug and play” medium either. For starters, you have to understand that it began life as a low-fi medium intended for voice recordings. The tape itself was half the width of what was then the industry standard for tape, the reel-to-reel (RTR) medium. Adding insult to injury, the cassette tape speed of 1-7/8 ips (inches per second) was half the speed of the slowest speed setting on a typical RTR deck of 3-1/4 ips. (Most RTR decks had speed options for 7-1/2 ips, and higher-end models offered 15 ips. By contrast, the industry standard for mastering tapes was 30 ips on tapes 1-2" wide [forget which].)

So, the cassette medium ran fully counter to the common wisdom of that day, that the best S/N and dynamic range required tape to be as wide as possible and run as fast as possible! Improvements in tape formulations and the advent of the Dolby Noise Reduction system sufficiently enhanced the medium make it viable for hi-fi use.

Also, was the variable bias control used to get rid of the clicks and pops?

No, whatever you were getting from the LP was what you were getting, including any clicks and pops it generated.

Bias was one of the things that kept cassette recording from being a “plug and play” process, at least if you cared about sound quality. You can look up a lengthy Wiki article on the topic, but bias was basically an AC signal added during recording that enhanced the tape’s distortion and frequency response. Various tape formulations, commonly known as Type I, II, or IV (or Normal, Chromium Dioxide, or Metal respectively) had different bias requirements. Hi-fi cassette decks had switches for bias setting for the different tape options. For many years chrome tapes were the hi-fi standard; the (even better) metal tapes came along in later years, but were never as popular, one reason being their added cost.

Adding insult to injury, no two tapes were alike: A normal or chrome tape from TDK or Maxell (to name two of the major players) would have slightly different bias requirements for optimal performance. The respective bias settings on the cassette decks were general by necessity.

An adjustable bias control was an awesome feature if you had a three-head cassette deck. A typical deck had two heads – one head for erasing, and a second that did either playback or recording. A three-head deck added a record head that was separate from the playback head. The heads were aligned (left to right) as erase, record, play. With the playback head last in line, you could actually listen to a tape as it was being recorded. Let me tell you, that was too cool for words!

So with the adjustable bias control you could do a sample recording, adjust the bias knob, and immediately hear the results in real time. What you were going for was the setting that made the recording sound like the LP (the tape deck had a “Monitor” button that would switch back and forth between the source and recorded tape).

In addition, there was the “peak check” issue that John mentioned (I’d forgotten about that!). It wasn’t uncommon to find one song a bit “hotter” than the rest, and the meter would be getting up into the red zone. So you’d have to bail on that recording and start over.

Like I said, nothing “plug and play” about this! But the reward for the effort and expenditures in equipment was a recording that sounded identical (at least to my ears) to the original LP. And with no microphonics or new ticks and pops added over time. You could put your LPs on the shelf and preserve them.

Another benefit, realized many years later, was that I was able to take virtually pristine LPs that never came out on CD and digitize them, and with a little software clean-up get near CD quality (save a few ticks and pops that couldn’t be effectively treated).

There were also tape-head alignment issues with the cassette medium. To wit, tapes recorded on one machine always sounded best when played back on that machine. If you ever had to get a new cassette deck (due to failure of the old one or whatever), it was critical to adjust the tape head of the new one so that your existing tapes sounded best. This was typically easily done with a small screw driver once the door to the tape well was removed (typically they just popped out). You’d typically want the adjustment that got the best high frequency response.

All that to say, I totally agree with Mel that digital is absolutely the way to go. I really don’t get the current attraction to LPs – it’s a totally inferior medium by comparison. Been there, ain’t going back!

Regards,
Wayne
 
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John Whittaker

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One narrow niche of cassette recording became 'plug and record' for me, to wit, recording FM radio broadcasts. Living in the Los Angeles area FM radio was a rich source for off-air recording way back when. Often of live music.

Due to the fact that radio stations go to great effort to 'normalize' their outputs, one could relatively easily determine the 'peak' output of individual stations beforehand and have a table of recording settings such that one could ...

… leap out of your reclined position and slam a pre-staged cassette into the recorder, and dial the record level adjustments to the 'preset' FM station values and hit record. That was for Spontaneous FM Radio Recording. Really easy after the initial setup.

John

p.s. I have a >100 album collection of pre-recorded Dolby B 7.5IPS reel-to-reel tapes also. Mostly Barclay-Crocker classical reissues. I have a working Dolby unit. Of all my analog and digital sources the R2R tapes seem to produce the most 'easy listening' experience. I also have a relatively large library of both PCM and DSD digital sources. Sources sound different on my setup. I love them all; but, in the case of 'laboratory' playing of LPs doing is often a triumph of the will. I treat it as an art form to offend people … I most often hear "I'd never do that to play music." Humans love ritual. IMO playing LPs requires the most rigorous audio ritual … and hence, with the right mind set can produce the greater experience. 'HIgh personal investment' an all that.
 

Sal1950

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And I thought listening to vinyl was the closest medium to the master tapes. Maybe I was wrong... : P
Not even close. Just about any producer will tell you the only fully transpanet source media is digital. Redbook or better will produce a source that is indistinguishable from the master tape.
 

DanDan

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Afaik, BBC started Digital Audio. Their goal was to distribute their high quality material for FM broadcast exactly equally throughout the land. The existing Microwave and Cable links were lossy. Sony Philips followed with the F1 Recorder and CD. Note both were 14 Bit, which was considered enough. Later, as transports and manufacture became better, two error correcting bits were borrowed to deliver the current 16. Vinyl always sounded pretty bad, but it had a romantic and sharing aspect. Friends gathered to share listening to the latest buy. Much detail was read and remembered. Studios, Engineers, were noted. Unfortunately Cassettes and CD's size severely limited the visual/text aspects. This was compounded by the confusion over simple text, song titles. It seems almost nobody availed of the ability of CD to store and play images. Even now, how many people are including visual and text content in release formats just begging for it.
 
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Grayson Dere

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Afaik, BBC started Digital Audio. Their goal was to distribute their high quality material for FM broadcast exactly equally throughout the land. The existing Microwave and Cable links were lossy. Sony Philips followed with the F1 Recorder and CD. Note both were 14 Bit, which was considered enough. Later, as transports and manufacture became better, two error correcting bits were borrowed to deliver the current 16. Vinyl always sounded pretty bad, but it had a romantic and sharing aspect. Friends gathered to share listening to the latest buy. Much detail was read and remembered. Studios, Engineers, were noted. Unfortunately Cassettes and CD's size severely limited the visual/text aspects. This was compounded by the confusion over simple text, song titles. It seems almost nobody availed of the ability of CD to store and play images. Even now, how many people are including visual and text content in release formats just begging for it.

Fascinating about the BBC! Thanks : )
 

Grayson Dere

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What is the phenomenon that I've heard more than once about 'digital fatigue?' Apparently some professional audio reviewers mention vinyl being more open and un-harsh sounding, much like live music; they go on to say digital audio is for the most part glaring and hard. I understand the mastering quality is of utmost importance but it seems like in the audiophile community there are a lot of blanket statements.
 

DanDan

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There are widespread myths. 'Vinyl sounds warmer' It blatantly does not. It is lacking in bass and has always struck me as harsh in the low highs. Years, ago, early Digital, blind testing in a Studio, six of us all picked the two best sounding devices. An AMS AudioFile and a Technics SV360. This was in the company of fully Pro Analogue tape machines, Dolby SR, etc. etc. I suspect digital fatigue may be in fact The Loudness Wars. I cannot listen to modern masters. I always think I am being force fed ground glass! There are many blanket statements, but only one remains ever true. 'One Hand Washes The Other' ;-)
 

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Afaik, BBC started Digital Audio. Their goal was to distribute their high quality material for FM broadcast exactly equally throughout the land. The existing Microwave and Cable links were lossy. Sony Philips followed with the F1 Recorder and CD. Note both were 14 Bit, which was considered enough...
Yes from 1972 on. Anyone who wants the history could look here: https://www.bbceng.info/Technical Reviews/pcm-nicam/digits-fm.html

At that time I was using Sutton Coldfield for FM, which was the highest quality playback possible. And with a Quad valve tuner with add-on stereo decoder, Quad II preamp and two Quad 15W valve amps, Wharfedale 12/RS/DD drivers in home-built 4.5 cu ft reflexes, it sounded pretty good. Or so I thought!

All my friends used to come round and listen :) I even used it for discos. Ah, the old days...

Fortunately I have much better equipment now!

MeJ
 

MeJ

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MeJ

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What is the phenomenon that I've heard more than once about 'digital fatigue?' Apparently some professional audio reviewers mention vinyl being more open and un-harsh sounding, much like live music; they go on to say digital audio is for the most part glaring and hard. I understand the mastering quality is of utmost importance but it seems like in the audiophile community there are a lot of blanket statements.

I started out, in 1958, age 7, as a hifi enthusiast - because I loved listening to music. By the time I was 14 I was a fairly practiced recordist, with my first part home-built hifi - very basic, but still good enough to enjoy music. At that time hifi was engineering-led, with articles in magazines by people like Peter Baxandall and John Linsley-Hood.

The early transistor amplifiers, unfortunately, measured well at fairly high power, but many had serious deficiencies at low level, a measurement regime that had never been needed with the typical reducing-with-level distortion characteristics of valve push-pull amplifiers.

This led to a valid critique and the birth of a 'subjectivist' approach that denied the validity of measurement as characterising performance. Although 'transiently' (pun, sorry) this was indeed true, the issues with early transistor amplifiers and an inadequate measurement regime were rapidly resolved to even the most critical professional listener's satisfaction.

Unfortunately subjectivism having been born continued... and continues to this day.

I'm an audio engineer (of minor skills) with equipment designs (formerly!) in production, a studio designer and user, engineer and producer, and a muso. I'm not banging my drum, just saying that I have used my ears professionally and got paid for that. However my degree is in psychology, and that's what's needed to deal with audio subjectivism, which is not based in any physical reality. I am not putting people down: subjectivists honestly hold their views, but they are objectively unjustified.

There's a lot of stuff out there about the problems of subjectivism in audio (or anywhere else). Some places to look (note, all by respected audio professionals!):


Some people will maintain that the human ear is the ultimate tool to judge fidelity. To that, all I can say is this:

- the human ear is not a microphone​
- no sound is transmitted from the ear's receptors to the brain​
- everything in our perception of sound is constructed in the auditory cortex​
- the attentional mechanism is critical in musical and sound assessment and it is conditioned​
- hearing is adaptive​

So I reckon it essential to separate the domains.
  • In the physical domain, 'sound' (sorry again) engineering and proper measurement will produce the best reproduction.
  • In the psycho-acoustic domain, our ears discard 90% or so of all incoming audio from our fine amplifier, and psychological factors transform our experience utterly
It's best to not mix up these two domains.

And faith-based engineering does not produce good equipment.

None of the above will change the ultimate physical fact: our loudspeakers - even the best - are lousy transducers, only challenged for this inadequacy by our microphones...

Sorry, got on a hobby horse there :)

MeJ
 

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BTW sorry to post so much, stuck here self-isolating s not got much else to do!

MeJ
 

Grayson Dere

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That was a good read, MeJ. Thank you for your input. I'll check out those websites you provided links to : )
 

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On re-reading my rant, it could be interpreted as dismissing audition as a useful tool. I'd just like to add, that's absolutely not the case, the human 'ear' (meaning the whole physiological and psychological system) is the final arbiter when it comes to musical decisions. But the ear has to be given the utmost support in order to be able to make such decisions. It is easily fooled, confused, distracted, misused. Control of listening conditions, volume level, tiredness, and many other factors is needed - and that's what professional studio and mastering studio level control and acoustics is for. You have to give the ear the best possible chance of being able to make an accurate assessment, comparing like with like.

And that's where subjectivists usually fail. In my opinion.

Further, blind A/B tests are the gold standard for making such decisions, level matching being crucial (to much better than 0.1 dBC)

And no such test on an amplifier has, to my knowledge, ever been able to identify reliably a difference between any competently designed equipment.

The same with digital playback.

Now on the other hand, with speakers, microphones, tape playback, vinyl playback - there the performance is so low that -- given support -- the ear can choose the best, or at least least bad, result on a given material. On different material a different result might be chosen...

MeJ
 
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